Warrior: End Game optimum self heal combos, and overall damage mitigation.

[Lhun]

I asked him how WAR was better for Multi-target tanking when all a Multi-target tank has to do is hold hate on everything.

The reason why warrior is a better multi-target tank is while flash and overpower both hold hate in groups of enemies (also, flash's hate might be based on total attack power, (or weapon damage) of which WAR has more), overpower has the following benefits:

1) is a Cone with a slightly greater effective distance then flash,
2) deals damage to the enemies it hits.
3) with bloodbath gives you health.
4) does not often require you to re-position as long as as your placement is good based on add-on pop location.
5) We can also use flash, and as such, we don't run out of TP, or MP, and can generate buckets more hate than every other class on groups of mobs.

Going back to Defiance Dancing - Vengeance + Bloodbath + Overpower does yield a lot of health. Unfortunately, I think it would be edged out by the lost HP while being out of defiance, spike damage can kill you. - not as useful during boss fights, definitely viable while trash/add tanking - and depending on your crit rate, you are definitely getting more out of the wrath you get from it.

[JormungandrVanagandr]

I must be doing something terribly wrong if Overpower generates Wrath for you.

[Giantbane]

What have we learned? Berserk and Second Wind rocks. Berzerk has a long enough duration to use it WITH second wind AND other things. I get higher heal numbers with Convalescence though, consistently... but it's not 20%. Perhaps the calculation is happening on the floor damage before ATKP is applied?

Most attack and healing abilities do not do an exact amount of damage/healing. There's a median amount of damage/healing that they do based on weapon damage, STR/MND and DET. Then the the final damage/heal that actually happens is within something like 5% of that #. I have tested this further for myself, and after about 20 casts with/without Convalescence, Convalescence does not seem to have any effect whatsoever (roughly 350-370 for me with or without Convalescence, give or take a couple points).

Either way, if it crits, second wind is ok. If it doesn't crit, berserk adds a whopping 150 hp to that heal. Big Deal. You know a PLD can cast cure on himself? You don't see PLD freaking out about that because they don't care about a 150 hp heal even tho a 150 hp heal is better for a PLD than it is for a WAR (due to damage redux). Why? Because it's not super amazing and doesn't actually rock. It's ok as a supplemental when you need healing right now, but it's very weak on its own (and not great by any regard).

Anyhow, I hope the bug report pans out. Every little bit helps I suppose.

Another cool thing is the fact that there is almost no downside to turning off defiance after popping a wrath ability, to then to pop a non-wrath based self heal for the increased bonus that having more attack power gives you - but only if Infuriate is not available.

For example, in a case where the timer for Infurate is down, AND after popping a IB, for example:
Toggle defiance, berzerk, second wind. Toggle defiance back on. The 25% bonus to attack power makes the wind quite a bit stronger.

Defiance does NOT reduce attack power. It's is mind numbingly easy to test this and you did not. As such, being in or out of defiance has 0 effect on second wind. It's also insanely easy to test this and you did not.

Also, swapping off and on Defiance DOES have a detrimental effect. First, you are not generating wrath with defiance off (no +heal bonus, no +crit bonus, no closer to being able to IB). Second, when swapping off Defiance you cap your HP at your normal HP value. However, when you switch Defiance back on, you do not get that extra HP back. You just have an empty gap of HP that needs to be filled.

So if you've got external healing, flipping Defiance off caps the amount your healers can actually heal you to 80% of your Defiance hp total until you flip it back on. Defiance doesn't effect Inner Beast, and it doesn't effect Second Wind. So all you get from this move is a 25% boost to the somewhat mediocre Bloodbath healing and a 25% boost to the thoroughly lackluster healing from storm's path. Personally I don't think the additional amount you gain from either of those abilities can offset the lower hp cap + any additional healing received from wrath stacks + any additional crit received from wrath stacks + being closer to infuriate so you can IB again. Swapping Defiance off to increase your DPS is one thing (and only if Unchained is down), but swapping off Defiance to boost your self heals is not a good idea.

Potency has nothing at all to do with how much health you get back from the actions taken during bath, except as a modifier for the total attack damage as compared to your auto attack damage. On top of that, storm's path gives 50% of your damage dealt during it's attack as health.

The damage modifier on storm's path is second only to butcher's block. You're all thinking in burst healing as opposed to totals over time. You can still IB. Doing this
combo in addition does not prevent you from doing IB if you need it.

Storm's Path is almost negligible. It's better than nothing as long as you have a big threat cushion and aren't running out of TP (why it costs 90 TP is beyond me), but it's only going to heal you for something like 150-200 every 3rd hit in a combo (at best, if you're not doing anything else whatsoever). PLD can cast cure and basically get the same amount of HP back so it's still a net loss vs. a PLD who can pretty much fast blade -> riot blade -> cure indefinitely if they felt like it (but only after they've emptied their mana spamming cure). And it's not even necessarily a 150-200 hp net gain when used in blood bath since you're using the weakest of the 3 combos we have to pull it off, thus actually getting a little less out of bloodbath.

And not that it makes much difference, but storm's path(250) is behind both butcher's block(280) and storm's eye(270) in potency.

Seriously... what the heck people. THINK... please. Why are you all so quick to dismiss what works for the other half of the people playing this game, people that you don't play with, whom are far better at this game then you (with the exception of bluegarter?)?

So... you're amazing, and you're far better than most of us, so we should just listen to you on how to play ... right?

I find this to be an ENORMOUSLY arrogant statement for you to make. Most of your novel suggestions are just you spouting stuff you believe to be true with little to no testing whatsoever. Your posts show a limited understanding of exactly how many of the WAR class abilities function, and you're big on feeling while low on #s. You probably shouldn't act like you have any actual idea what's going on with this class or how well it functions compared to a PLD (because you don't appear to).

The point of this thread is to talk about it. IF THE DEVS THINK THERE'S NOTHING WRONG, nothing will be done -> either figure out what the DEVS are doing in testing, or CATEGORICALLY prove them wrong.

I find the point of many WAR threads is to attempt to prove to the devs (and eachother) that there is something wrong that cannot be uncovered by experimentation and additional research.

I think the point of this thread is to prove how awesome a WAR you are, and how much better you know this class than the rest of us whiners, and as Yoshi P said "L2P". Unfortunately, because all you've done is spout a bunch of stuff we already know supplemented with additional nonsense you made up and/or didn't bother to test, I'd say you've failed miserably in this regard.

[Lhun]

I must be doing something terribly wrong if Overpower generates Wrath for you.

You are correct, my apologies. Since I most often use vengeance and bloodbath when tanking add-on with overpower, I'm typically building wrath that way.

I have corrected my above post, and corrected the inconsistencies and made corrections to the stats in my initial post.