Yoshi P talks about Warriors- from Producer Letter Live @ TGS

[Giantbane]

I guess that parry+# stat on all our gear does nothing. ... ........

You realize PLD can parry too, right? Block vs. Parry isn't an either or thing, WAR get parry, PLD get block + parry. They could gear for parry if they felt like it.

Either way, lets just say you ignore the additional baseline mitigation afforded by block. Enhanced Convalescence + Shield Oath (sorry, not Holy Shield) blows Convalescence + wrath + mantra out of the water. It's over 50% more effective and you don't even have to bother with wrath stacks or slotting and using 2 cross class abilities.

This is also ignoring rage of halone which makes Convalescence even MORE effective against STR based enemies.

[Jeckyl_Tesla]

Has anyone tried stacking skill speed, aka using the Rings of Maiming instead of fending? I admit, my maths is not the best, which is why I'd like to see if others have tried it and have managed it and if it works well.

[Leiron]

15% is from Wrath alone. We also get Convalescence and mantra.

Shield oath is equivalent to 15% healing from Wrath by itself, and it has 100% maintenance time.
Paladins get a 30% convalescence compared to your 20%
Mantra is the only fair argument but again, overhealing is wasted healing.

You're ignoring parry and the fact that war receives more health from cure itself.

Parry is universal and on Gladiator gear.

damage stuff

The damage from a Marauder is about equivalent to that of a Paladin in equal gear/stats.
Furthermore, Paladin gets parry as well.
To add onto this, yes, you are correct.


15% from wrath = 20% from shield oath.
The thing is, you have to give up wrath to do Inner Beast, and Warriors do not have block, and do not have the same amount of emergency cooldowns.
Mitigation is NEVER wasted.

[Giantbane]

Has anyone tried stacking skill speed, aka using the Rings of Maiming instead of fending? I admit, my maths is not the best, which is why I'd like to see if others have tried it and have managed it and if it works well.

go look up HiirNoivl's post history, he's done a lot of experimenting with skill speed and SCH ability to boost skill speed. Skill speed was his last "y'all doin it wrong, you should be doing XYZ" series of posts. Now he's moved onto +crit, presumably because skill speed still wasn't the magic bullet we've been looking for.

[Giantbane]

Shield oath is equivalent to 15% healing from Wrath by itself, and it has 100% maintenance time.

Actually it's not. Shield Oath is equal to 25% extra healing. So, Shield oath is equivalent to full Wrath stacks and another bonus 10% on top of that.

What's even better is how it stacks with something like Convalescence. It's a multiplicative effect, so it's not just 30% bonus heals, it's something like 62% more effective healing received compared to not using convalescence or shield oath. Neat, huh?

Oh, and yea, also that 100% maintenance time thing

[Leiron]

Math doesn't lie, but it doesn't mean it can't be wrong. The math is only as good as the person crunching the numbers and this thread has seen its fair share of mistakes.

It has, but they have been minor andnot changed the fact that Warriors are quite a bit behind right now.
The issue is just that, the healers in this game CANNOT top off a tank instantly.
If this were a game where Healer's were very powerful, Warriors would be just as good a tank as a Paladin, but they really aren't unfortunately.


@giantbane: Where are you getting the idea that its equivalent to 25% extra healing? Oh wait I see what you mean, since it takes 25% longer for you to die.
The thing is I would not quite say that it is a fair assessment.
Keep in mind, Warrior has both 25% HP buff and the 15% healing buff.
So in reality, the eHP of a Warrior is around 45% or so.

Warriors and Paladins would be perfectly balanced if this was the ONLY area in which they differed, and if Bosses were not fights of attrition.
I don't know, it genuinely feels like SE planned around a different context for Warriors than Paladin.

[C-croft]

It has, but they have been minor andnot changed the fact that Warriors are quite a bit behind right now.
The issue is just that, the healers in this game CANNOT top off a tank instantly.
If this were a game where Healer's were very powerful, Warriors would be just as good a tank as a Paladin, but they really aren't unfortunately.

Very true, I should have been a bit more clear.

[Giantbane]

@giantbane: Where are you getting the idea that its equivalent to 25% extra healing? Oh wait I see what you mean, since it takes 25% longer for you to die.
The thing is I would not quite say that it is a fair assessment.
Keep in mind, Warrior has both 25% HP buff and the 15% healing buff.
So in reality, the eHP of a Warrior is around 45% or so.

no

A war takes 1000 hit, a pld will take a 800 hit instead.
A war now needs to be healed for 1000, while the pld only needs to be healed for 800.
A war needs more than 1000 hp to take that hit, while a pld only needs more than 800 hp to take that hit.

Notice how in all circumstances, the damage taken by the war, the healing required and the hp needed to take that hit are all 25% higher for the WAR than the PLD. That's how that works. A WAR needs 25% more HP and requires 25% more healing than a PLD baseline (without taking into account anything else).

Defiance provides that 25% more HP, but only provides 15% more healing received (when wrath is maxed). It appears the design is for the WAR to close that gap with the ability to self heal while tanking. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to do a very good job closing that gap when you're in the top tier content (and it's debatable at lower tiers when considering equal gear).

And then you have everything else.

[Kitru]

Keep in mind, Warrior has both 25% HP buff and the 15% healing buff.
So in reality, the eHP of a Warrior is around 45% or so.

No, you're doing the math wrong there. On top of that, you're conflating eHP with required external healing.

DR equates to 25% +hp and 25% +healing because the hit points are affected by 20% less damage and healing is acting upon 80% less damage (1/.8 = 1.25).

eHP is only affected by the max hp, since we're talking about *effective* hit points, as in, how many hp you effectively have. +Healing is the equivalent of total mitigation, which references how much external healing you require. As such, WAR and PLD have exactly the same eHP: 20% DR and 25% +hp do the exact same thing. As to end mitigation, PLD is better off because it still has that 20% DR, which is a 25% advantage, whereas WAR has 7-15% +healing (7% if you use IB on CD; 15% if you only use IB with Infuriate), which means that PLD requires 8.7-16.8% less healing.

[Leiron]

gotta save characters.

Um, no, you misunderstood what I was saying.
Let us say you both have 1k base HP.
You pop defiance for 25% more health.
Paladin pops shield oath.
Now you have incoming damage of 500. Warrior takes all of it, Gladiator takes 400.
They would die in the same amount of time.
Now factor in healing.
You have an incoming heal of 300, Warrior gets 15% more, so they get 345, the Paladin gets only 300.

Note this however, Warrior gets 45 more health back, but takes 100 more damage.
In a war of attrition, mitigation becomes far more important because the healer's cannot keep up with you.

Defiance is a good ability, but it works under a different context.
Defiance assumes that the incoming heals can top you off.
Shield oath assumes that they can't, and can only slow death.

@Kitru: Thank you for the correction. Yeah I was thinking something else at the time.
I genuinely think that if they want to fix Warrior, it needs to have a block mechanic of its own, and perhaps changing Defiance so that stacks are permanent and convey some form of mitigation.