Monks very weak. Need rebalance

[Risbyn]

Rysbyn is right: MNKs can be competitive in quite a few fights. But we need a few tweaks and some polish to really become consistently competitive.

PS - please indicate if you used LB in those fights. Because if you did, we need to subtract 25-30 DPS on each of those values.

I wouldn't be against a few tweaks and polish at all. Everyone could use some quality of life tweaks. However, the people saying that Monks are "weak" are people who are not being honest with themselves as far as their playstyle/skill goes. There was a reason why Monk's Fist of Fire was reduced to 5% damage from 10% and it wasn't because the developers felt Monks were weak. The real numbers say otherwise. Does this mean that I want people to stack Monk? Of course not, that would never work. I'm advocating that a balanced party of Ranged/Magic/Melee will get through all content in the game if they are good enough. We have a Monk in the Free Company that solo silenced Turn 2 ADS because they didn't have any Bards on. It is up to individual performance if they're a hindrance to the party or not. Not the Class/Job.

[JokingCat]

I wouldn't be against a few tweaks and polish at all. Everyone could use some quality of life tweaks. However, the people saying that Monks are "weak" are people who are not being honest with themselves as far as their playstyle/skill goes. There was a reason why Monk's Fist of Fire was reduced to 5% damage from 10% and it wasn't because the developers felt Monks were weak. The real numbers say otherwise. Does this mean that I want people to stack Monk? Of course not, that would never work. I'm advocating that a balanced party of Ranged/Magic/Melee will get through all content in the game if they are good enough. We have a Monk in the Free Company that solo silenced Turn 2 ADS because they didn't have any Bards on. It is up to individual performance if they're a hindrance to the party or not. Not the Class/Job.

can you show your rotation?

[Risbyn]

can you show your rotation?

I'll do you one better, I'll post a portion of my Monk Guide I worked on for my Free Company. Gimme a moment to edit.

Boss Fight Rotation



Preliminary Rotation



Start on Boss's flank. This is how you should start every boss fight unless there is a DPS check part of the fight in which case you should save this rotation for when the DPS check happens.

This will start you off with full stacked Greased Lightning as well as +10% Damage before you move onto your Primary Rotation.

Remember to eat food and use Fists of Fire.

Touch of Death

Activate Perfect Balance

Snap Punch(Flank) -> Snap Punch(Flank) -> Demolish
Twin Snakes(Flank) -> Snap Punch(Flank)

2. Primary Rotation

Personally, I do like using Blood for Blood + Internal Release upon the first application of Demolish/Touch of Death in the Primary Rotation so that they tick for harder.Otherwise, use Blood for Blood/Internal Release on cooldown at your discretion. Refresh Touch of Death when it falls off, preferably when you're fully buffed. Keep in mind that Touch of Death and Demolish DoTs will not refresh if it's weaker than what's already on the mob. So if you've popped Blood for Blood and did Touch of Death, a non-buffed Touch of Death will not override the buffed one.

This rotation assumes at least 491 Skill Speed and full stacked Greased Lightning. Otherwise, replace all instances of True Strike with Twin Snakes. The reason for this is because if you have less than 491 Skill Speed + fully stacked Greased Lightning, your Twin Snakes 10% damage buff will fall off when using True Strike.

Touch of Death (ONLY start if you don't do the preliminary rotation)

Dragon Kick(Flank)[Bootshine if this is your second cycle] -> True Strike(Behind) -> Demolish (This overrides the one you used in the Preliminary Rotation because Demolish in the Preliminary does not apply the final stack of Greased Lightning to the DoT)
Dragon Kick(Flank) -> Twin Snakes(Flank) -> Snap Punch(Flank)

Bootshine(Behind) -> True Strike(Behind) -> Snap Punch(Flank)
Dragon Kick(Flank) -> Twin Snakes(Flank) -> Demolish

Bootshine(Behind) -> True Strike(Behind) -> Snap Punch(Flank)
Dragon Kick(Flank) -> Twin Snakes(Flank) -> Snap Punch(Flank)

Bootshine(Behind) -> True Strike(Behind) -> Demolish
Dragon Kick(Flank) -> Twin Snakes(Flank) -> Snap Punch(Flank)

There is a window in which Demolish hasn't worn off yet and your Demolish rotation is up. In which case, you would use Snap Punch and use Demolish in the following rotation.

IMPORTANT NOTE ABOUT DPS

You MUST be able to use your Weapon Skill in the positions stated on the Weapon Skill. It's okay to miss a couple because of AoE or dodging, but it's a huge DPS loss if you stand in one position and never move. There is some incredibly hard DPS checks in the game and being able to output the maximum amount is a must. Bosses have some tail attacks, but all tail attacks that I've seen in all content has a cooldown. You can run behind the boss, proc the tail attack, move out and then move back in to do your from behind rotation.

___________________________________

I hope people finds this useful. If there's something here you disagree with, let me know and I'll explain the reasoning.

[ilJumperMT]

I'll do you one better, I'll post a portion of my Monk Guide I worked on for my Free Company. Gimme a moment to edit.

Boss Fight Rotation



Preliminary Rotation



Start on Boss's flank. This is how you should start every boss fight unless there is a DPS check part of the fight in which case you should save this rotation for when the DPS check happens.

This will start you off with full stacked Greased Lightning as well as +10% Damage before you move onto your Primary Rotation.

Remember to eat food and use Fists of Fire.

Touch of Death

Activate Perfect Balance

Snap Punch(Flank) -> Snap Punch(Flank) -> Demolish
Twin Snakes(Flank) -> Snap Punch(Flank)

2. Primary Rotation

Personally, I do like using Blood for Blood + Internal Release upon the first application of Demolish/Touch of Death in the Primary Rotation so that they tick for harder.Otherwise, use Blood for Blood/Internal Release on cooldown at your discretion. Refresh Touch of Death when it falls off, preferably when you're fully buffed. Keep in mind that Touch of Death and Demolish DoTs will not refresh if it's weaker than what's already on the mob. So if you've popped Blood for Blood and did Touch of Death, a non-buffed Touch of Death will not override the buffed one.

This rotation assumes at least 491 Skill Speed and full stacked Greased Lightning. Otherwise, replace all instances of True Strike with Twin Snakes. The reason for this is because if you have less than 491 Skill Speed + fully stacked Greased Lightning, your Twin Snakes 10% damage buff will fall off when using True Strike.

Touch of Death (ONLY start if you don't do the preliminary rotation)

Dragon Kick(Flank) -> True Strike(Behind) -> Demolish (This overrides the one you used in the Preliminary Rotation because Demolish in the Preliminary does not apply the final stack of Greased Lightning to the DoT)
Dragon Kick(Flank) -> Twin Snakes(Flank) -> Snap Punch(Flank)

Bootshine(Behind) -> True Strike(Behind) -> Snap Punch(Flank)
Dragon Kick(Flank) -> Twin Snakes(Flank) -> Demolish

Bootshine(Behind) -> True Strike(Behind) -> Snap Punch(Flank)
Dragon Kick(Flank) -> Twin Snakes(Flank) -> Snap Punch(Flank)

Bootshine(Behind) -> True Strike(Behind) -> Demolish
Dragon Kick(Flank) -> Twin Snakes(Flank) -> Snap Punch(Flank)

There is a window in which Demolish hasn't worn off yet and your Demolish rotation is up. In which case, you would use Snap Punch and use Demolish in the following rotation.

IMPORTANT NOTE ABOUT DPS

You MUST be able to use your Weapon Skill in the positions stated on the Weapon Skill. It's okay to miss a couple because of AoE or dodging, but it's a huge DPS loss if you stand in one position and never move. There is some incredibly hard DPS checks in the game and being able to output the maximum amount is a must. Bosses have some tail attacks, but all tail attacks that I've seen in all content has a cooldown. You can run behind the boss, proc the tail attack, move out and then move back in to do your from behind rotation.

___________________________________

I hope people finds this useful. If there's something here you disagree with, let me know and I'll explain the reasoning.

Nice spamming of Dragon Kick when it only need to be used every 3 Rotations, like Demolish

[Bolde]

Nice spamming of Dragon Kick when it only need to be used every 3 Rotations, like Demolish

So ... please show us your rotation.

[Risbyn]

Nice spamming of Dragon Kick when it only need to be used every 3 Rotations, like Demolish

Every 3 Rotations? Please do not do that. Dragon Kick falls off if you don't do it every 2nd rotation and you lose your debuff on the target. The first Dragon Kick in the starter rotation is there because it's the highest potency. It won't even apply the debuff on the target until the second Dragon Kick because you're not in Opo-opo form. I should probably edit in that the first Dragon Kick should be Bootshine when you cycle back to the start since I think that's where you're getting the "spamming dragon kick". I'll edit it in a second.

[Tribunus]

Thanks thats really helpful, I think a lot of people are having trouble with the rotation coupled with the required movement.

Do you not use impulse drive or fracture at all? Would it not be possible to replace true strike with impulse drive? Its much greater potency I feel outweighs the 5% chance to crit.

Or drop true strike and weave in impulse drive between your back to flank movements?

[Risbyn]

Thanks thats really helpful, I think a lot of people are having trouble with the rotation coupled with the required movement.

Do you not use impulse drive or fracture at all? Would it not be possible to replace true strike with impulse drive? Its much greater potency I feel outweighs the 5% chance to crit.

Or drop true strike and weave in impulse drive between your back to flank movements?

Using Impulse Drive will not allow you to shift forms and costs you a GCD to move into your next form, not to mention the highest TP cost barring Touch of Death and Touch of Death has a much higher potency. Weaving Impulse Drive means you're not moving into forms to do more Bootshines. Impulse Drive will net you a DPS loss and TP starvation even with Invigorate.
Here, it's easier to see with numbers. Take a very simple rotation with Impulse drive 7 GCDs vs a simple rotation without Impulse Drive but with True Strike. This isn't even counting the True Strike 5% chance to crit.

Bootshine - Impulse Drive - Twin Snakes - Snap Punch
130(195) 180 140 180
Dragon Kick - Twin Snakes - Snap Punch
150 140 180
_______________________________________________
1165 total potency over 7 GCDs

Bootshine - True Strike - Snap Punch
130(195) 150 180
Dragon Kick - Twin Snakes - Snap Punch
150 140 180
Bootshine
130(195)
________________________________________
1190 total potency over 7 GCDs

Fracture is a different story. If you have enough Skill Speed, you can actually weave this into your rotation and net a DPS gain but at the cost of, again, TP starvation. So I have used Fracture before but didn't want to post it in the actual rotation and have people use it thinking that it's the best way. You'd need to use it smartly. Do not use it in quick fights or any fights that are longer than 5 minutes.

[EasymodeX]

__________________________
1165 total potency over 7 GCDs
________________________________________
1190 total potency over 7 GCDs

This is a phenomenally bad comparison because you frontload the second cycle of bootshine in the second example, skewing the average damage upward inaccurately. Same as that ayvar guy. Facepalm.

BS ID TW SP
DK TW SP

Is 1165 over 7 = 166.4

BS TR SP
DK TS SP

Is 165.8 potency per GCD.

The gap is larger when you factor in actual crit rates (you will have a 10-50% actual crit rate, reducing the value of Bootshine's autocrit).

[Risbyn]

This is a phenomenally bad comparison because you frontload the second cycle of bootshine in the second example, skewing the average damage upward inaccurately. Same as that ayvar guy. Facepalm.

BS ID TW SP
DK TW SP

Is 1165 over 7 = 166.4

BS TR SP
DK TS SP

Is 165.8 potency per GCD.

The gap is larger when you factor in actual crit rates (you will have a 10-50% actual crit rate, reducing the value of Bootshine's autocrit).

Bootshine is 100% crit rate from behind in Opo-opo form. That alone should give you an incentive to move from Bootshine to Bootshine quickly. You also only have 6 GCDs in your second example instead of the first's 7. So your comparison is wholly inaccurate. You need to compare 7 GCDs vs 7 GCDs. Numbers still do not lie. So yea, facepalm.