Warriors - How to fix our damage mitigation

[HiirNoivl]

You keep raising the bar don't you? lol

Wrath V 15% healing is again shifting the mitigation over to the WHMs. There's no way in Eorzea that their heal plus my heal = 15% more healing when I heal 20% of my HP in a single shot with just Maim up. Inner Beast beats Wrath V every time unless your Inner Beast is gimped.

I'd like to see this *lot* of evidence that Inner Beast = Wrath V coming from a WAR that actually hits an Inner Beast over 1500 with any regularly. Because I can tell you that the same people that hold Wrath V are the ones stacking Vitality.

Because if they didn't stack Vitality they wouldn't be so dependent on their WHMs!

**************

I HATE THESE FORUM RESTRICTIONS... wrote all this stuff and it gets erased because... "Your level's not high enough." *tableflip*

*sigh* Anyway, Dhex

I'm not angry at you because you don't pretend I'm some drooling delusional idiot. I know Blood bath doesn't do much... Berserk is best used in an Unchained state so I never use it with Bloodbath, only Inner Beast. I only use Bloodbath with Unchained when i'm really pushing damage, like on the Heart Phase of Titan or on the phase right before Garuda does Aerial Blast and before Sisters.

However, where we have a disagreement, which I've shared with you before is the "loss" WARs suffer from mitigating their own damage.

If you heal yourself with Inner Beast for 1500, that is in addition to the healer's 1500 afterward. Sure, the healer could have healed you twice for a greater amount had you held on your Wrath V (1750 + 1750 = 3500) But like I said, that's shifting the mitigation load on to the Healer and is a stressor.

PLD mitigates damage, but a lot of WARs do not mitigate damage even with the tools they have. I've noticed this. They'll hold hate and do damage, but they'll take damage and turn to the WHM and say heal me.

And the WHM is just... "OOM, PLD please." You need to use Inner Beast for the health of your party, not only for mitigation sake through self healing... but also mitigation's sake by using your damage cooldowns. If you're holding Wrath V you're not unchained and you're doing less damage than a PLD.

RE-EDIT: I think you're mistaking Storm's Eye's effect as well. Storm's eye doesn't effect the cures you receive, it lowers the cures that mobs like Garuda receive when they're getting healed. So it's even worse than you figured there.

* * * * *

These number ridden posts give me a headache. They say that you should only be healing "This much" but it's so much more than that. I don't know why you left out Thrill of Battle, you left out Second Wind, which is actually a good amount too considering it scales with Attack power...

Like I said, when I'm doing an okay job, I heal for about 10% of all the healing done for me. I bet if I pushed it, I could get higher. I'll just keep pushing.

Maybe you're right and this shouldn't be so difficult as it is. As it is anyone looking at your post would feel intimidated at the supposed level of perfection playing WAR adequately requires and that's truly a shame.

[Dhex]

This is long. Deal with it.

I'm going to set the average weaponskill output to 200DMG - I'm not going to cover Warrior’s auto-attacks in this analysis* They can and will account for 40-70 DMG and roughly 50-100HP in the total outcome.

Bloodbath: Converts 25% of physical damage dealt into HP.
Duration: 30s
First – How many 200DMG weaponskills can we fit in a 30sec window?
Duration/GCD = WS per Duration
30sec/2.5sec = 12 WS
12WS @ 200DMG = 2400DMG
25% of 2400DMG -> 2400*.25 = 600HP Recovery or 20HP per second for 30sec

This has given us both a baseline and basic formula.

Now – All Warrior’s know how and why they use combos other than Butcher’s Block:

Maim: Increases damage dealt by 20%.
Duration: 24s
Let’s give our Warrior the benefit and say they perfectly maintain Maim. DMG dealt will receive a new x1.2 modification.
30sec/2.5sec = 12 WS
12WS @ 200(x1.2)DMG = 2880DMG (Note: Increased total DMG by 480*)
25% of 2880DMG -> 2880*.25 = 720HP Recovery or 24HP per second for 30sec with concurrent Maim

Berserk: Increases attack power by 50%.
Duration: 20s – 5s Pacification on end of effect.

Adding a new 20sec adjustment of .5 to our established x1.2 Maim modifier means we must alter our formula to account for -> x1.2DMG for 10sec with a x1.7DMG for 20sec. This is achieved by splitting the original equation based on a 10sec duration phase @ x1.2 and a 20sec duration phase @ x1.7.
10sec/2.5sec = 4WS
4WS @ 200(x1.2)DMG = 960DMG (4WS is 1/3 of the original 12WS; 960DMG is 1/3 of 2880DMG)
25% of 960DMG -> 960*.25 = 240HP Recovery or 24HP per second for 10sec with concurrent Maim

Our math checks and we’ve now established initial Bloodbath phase is 10sec worth total 240HP -> Hold onto that number (240HP)!
So at the 10sec mark the Warrior will use Berserk to maximize their concurrent Berserk & Bloodbath without being interrupted by the 5sec Pacification effect Berserk inflicts.
@10sec of Bloodbath duration Berserk* our remainder of Bloodbath is 20sec
20sec/2.5sec = 8WS
8WS @ 200(x1.7)DMG = 2720DMG
25% of 2720DMG -> 2720*.25 = 680HP Recovery or 34HP per second for 20sec with concurrent Maim & Berserk

Now add the initial 240HP Recovery.
680+240 = 920HP Recovery or 30.66~HP per second for 30sec with concurrent Maim for 10sec & concurrent Maim & Berserk for 20sec

Total recast time until this is available again: 60sec
@lv50 6100~HP in 8/8 man party with Defiance.

A perfectly executed Bloodbath & Berserk combination with a perfect Maim cycle with heal 15% of your total HP over 30sec. That’s .5% mitigation per second. Add 20% to defense. 15% Healing Potency for being infuriated; this is 20% mitigation with 15.5% Healing Potency.
Let’s call the average heal 1400HP – 1400*1.155 = 1617HP then add a 920HP return over 30sec.

2537HP – sounds wonderful but it doesn’t account for incoming damage over that 30sec period.
Since we can only manage 12WS in 30sec let’s assume the attack cycle is similar to that; roughly 12 attacks per 30sec window. Dhorme Chimera is hitting you from 450~650 average and that’s with perfectly dodging it’s AOE attacks. We’ll average its output to 500DMG per attack. That’s 6000DMG in a 30sec period and I’m being kind to the tank with the average attack DMG, rate, and their ability to dodge and their stunner’s ability.

What about Inner Beast and a Storm Eye's slashing mod? Dhex you’re forgetting tools!

Let’s assume I’m a bright chipper little WAR and I adjust perfectly to any situation – I start the battle with Chimera with Wrath V consume it to utilize Unchained properly to bypass the 25% DMG reduction when I utilize Berserk properly within the Bloodbath cycle while maintaining a concurrent Maim. I have the x1.2 modifier for 5sec, then x1.3 modifier for 5sec and new x2.05 modifier for 20sec.
5sec/2.5sec = 2WS
2WS @ 200(x1.2)DMG = 480DMG
25% of 480DMG -> 480*.25 = 120HP Recovery or 24HP per second for 5sec with concurrent Maim
2WS @ 200(x1.3)DMG = 520DMG
25% of 520DMG -> 520*.25 = 130HP Recovery or 26HP per second for 5sec with concurrent Maim
10sec 250HP Recovery or 25HP per second for 10sec with concurrent Maim
@10sec utilize Berserk & Unchained upping the x1.3 (Storm & Maim) to x2.05DMG modification
20sec/2.5sec = 8WS
8WS @ 200(x2.05)DMG = 3280DMG
25% of 3280DMG -> 3280*.25 = 820HP Recovery or 41HP per second for 20sec with concurrent Maim & Berserk & Unchained & Storm’s Eye

Now add 250HP from initial phase -> 250HP + 820HP = 1070HP Recovery or 35.66~HP per second for 30sec with concurrent Maim, Berserk, Unchained, Storm's Eye

Unchained and Storm’s Eye net a 150HP gain.

The 8WS in the 20sec window of Berserk & Unchained nets us with Wrath V. We’re penalized with a 5sec Pacification. If we did not use Infuriate to grant our initial Wrath V to access Unchain means it will be available. I put the average Inner Beast for a lv50 Warrior on lv50+ content in decent equipment somewhere between 1100~1400HP.
Buffing yourself is not a constant and can go down easily if you’re pulling additional monsters, establishing hate, re-establishing hate, or positioning the monster at any point (you know tanking). If we use Inner Beast without having Infuriate ready we reduce our WHM’s ability to do their job, and if we lose Storm’s Eye the overall self-healing is entirely moot.

Unfortunately Bosses do a significant amount of damage with auto-attacks alone – enough to render this self-healing moot if we use it without perfect accuracy and preparation. Spike damage is worse because it requires immediate action – something we simply cannot do as illustrated above our healing is done over time with potential for small spikes. Healing generates at a .5 the amount healed, by upping the received healing we’re effectively upping the enmity rating for healing which eventually necessitates a shift from maintaining Storm’s Eye to utilizing Butcher’s Block, Flash, Tomahawk, or Provoke. This creates a downward spiral in relationship between a Warrior and Healer.
Now you know why the healer complains when they’ve got a Warrior that they can’t keep his HP up.

I’m a 50WAR, and a 50WHM. I haven’t got a Relic, and I haven’t got the best gear. I do however know how to observe mechanics. I know everyone that thinks Warrior is “okay” as is will tear into me for posting this but I felt it was necessary to demonstrate /what/ is happening even when you’re a perfect tank.

*Edit*
I'd like to point out WAR heals itself fine but not for enough - it has a long gap period between the phases in which it can self-heal. These "gap"s need to be softened by a passive +%HP on auto-attacks, a way to increase Parry rate, or a way shorten this "down" period significantly.

[Derza]

You keep raising the bar don't you? lol

Wrath V 15% healing is again shifting the mitigation over to the WHMs. There's no way in Eorzea that their heal plus my heal = 15% more healing when I heal 20% of my HP in a single shot with just Maim up. Inner Beast beats Wrath V every time unless your Inner Beast is gimped.

I'd like to see this *lot* of evidence that Inner Beast = Wrath V coming from a WAR that actually hits an Inner Beast over 1500 with any regularly. Because I can tell you that the same people that hold Wrath V are the ones stacking Vitality.

Because if they didn't stack Vitality they wouldn't be so dependent on their WHMs!

Ok lets put it this way... You need 25% more heals than a paladin (not counting wrath stacks... that will be factored in as i go)... if you use inner beast every time its up that puts you at keeping about 7-8%+ healing from wrath stacks - that means your inner beast has to heal for 17-18% of all incoming heals to be equal to paladins 20% damage reduction. So lets take a 20 sec time period ( roughly what it takes to get back to full stacks ) say your inner beast averages 1200 heal. that means in a 20 second period you could only take about 7200( 1200 is roughly 17% of 7200) in heals to break even with what a paladin has from just the 20% reduction. So in other words if you take more than 360 dps(7200 heals needed/20 seconds) your mitigation is worse than a paladin with no CD's used... 360 dps is not very much... If you take less then 360 dps you are better off than a paladin(that uses no tanking cooldowns).

Using your number of 1500 inner beast heal would mean the DPS taken would need to be less then 450 dps... Remember this is not counting any of the paladins cooldowns and I think its pretty obvious the paladin ones are better than the ones warrior gets for mitigation.

So basically the threshold for when paladin surpasses warrior in tanking ability is somewhere around 300-450 incoming dps (when considering all cooldowns from both classes). So as incoming damage increases warriors get less and less viable - hints why they are being avoided for Coil content (where i believe the auto attack on bosses alone = around 450-500 dps not counting any special skills).

[Kitru]

Wrath V 15% healing is again shifting the mitigation over to the WHMs. There's no way in Eorzea that their heal plus my heal = 15% more healing when I heal 20% of my HP in a single shot with just Maim up. Inner Beast beats Wrath V every time unless your Inner Beast is gimped.

First off, Inner Beast doesn't have to equal 15% of the total healer output a PLD would receive. It has to equal *25%* because that's what a PLD gets out of their 25% mitigation. The question of whether it's better to use Inner Beast on CD or leave it at Wrath V is a completely different issue. Once again, you're demonstrating an inability to actually understand what's actually being discussed.

Whether you should use Inner Beast asap or stick with Wrath V stacks is a question of optimization of performance. Whether WAR can actually stack up to the mitigation capabilities of a PLD is a balance question. They are separate issues completely that you seem to *continually* conflate.

Secondly, I still find it laughable that you're not even able to maintain internal consistency. You constantly inflate the contributions you're getting from Inner Beast so as to justify your position. It started off at 900, then it went up to 1700 (w/ Berserk, though you discussed the use rate as if it were without), and now you're saying that your static Inner Beast is 20% of your max hp, which, at 6500 hp, which is 1300. Honestly, which is it?

The reason that Wrath V is equal to or greater than Inner Beast is pretty simple: for Inner Beast to be more valuable than Wrath V, it has to be able to provide more healing than 8% of what your healers are able to throw out in 22.5 seconds (which is the fastest use rate on Inner Beast). Some basic math tells you that it would need to provide 180% of what your healer(s) can provide in a single GCD. Unless your healer(s) is/are only capable of providing ~722 hp with a single GCD (which is less than any of my healers manage with a single Cure; in an 8 man scenario, it's even *worse* because you've got 2 healers that can cast on you), your 1300 hp Inner Beast is a net loss. You healed yourself for 1300, but you decreased the healing you get from your healers by *more* than that.

Stacking Vit only has any application in reducing how much healing you get out of Inner Beast and, guess what, I'm using your own numbers of Str stacking in order to demonstrate that it's *not* viable even when you *do* maximize your DPS. The *only* time that you should use Inner Beast is when you've got Infuriate to bring those much more important Wrath stacks back immediately.

You can talk about your own experiences all you want, but, if you only ever use your Inner Beast as you indicate, you're never actually comparing the two different scenarios. You've got a single viewpoint and nothing else and are attempting to justify your performance as optimal by saying "hey, it works!" without any comparison. Just because you do it doesn't mean it's optimal. Hell, considering how much difficulty you've had in actually understanding the discussion, I'd wager that "because you do it" is a reason *not* to.

I also find it hilarious that you constantly talk about "shifting mitigation onto the WHM". *All* healers provide a bulk of the survivability to a tank. Tank mitigation doesn't exist to keep the tank alive. It exists to make the healer's job easier. Mitigation exists to increase the value of healing upon you. Self healing exists to linearly offset external healing. Your self healing is *not* a bulk of your own survivability. You could survive all of 10-15 seconds of a boss fight without a healer. If self healing were anything other than minor support for your healers (designed to offset the fact that you have inferior effective mitigation than a PLD), you'd be able to run without a healer or with a DPS off-healing you.

I swear, it's like you have no idea what tanking actually *is*. You act as if tanks exist in a vacuum and that they don't interact with the other roles at *all*. Of *course* you'd see self healing as more valuable than increased healing received because, in your mind, there *is* no incoming healing from outside. You're tanking absolutely *everything* on your lonesome. The healers are just there to keep the silly DPS alive when they take damage from AoEs.

I realize that's a strawman argument but it does serve to demonstrate the absurdity of the statement that I'm "shifting the mitigation on to the healer". Hell, by using Inner Beast, you're actually forcing your healers to heal you for more. Of course, I doubt you'd notice that because it's not like you actually pay attention.

[Savish]

Weapon speed doesn't apply to abilities everything is on a 2.5s GCD but yeah...

[dandelions]

HiirNoivl,

Hate to break it to you, but you are not a special snowflake. You'd actually be a detriment as a tank to most FC groups with your inability to put your ego aside.

At an extremely basic level, before CD's are ever factored in, Warriors require more healing for less of an effect; with the inability to make up that gap through self-heals. This is not something player skill can ever overcome; it is a hard limitation of the rules we play by. This deficiency affects the entire group, especially healers who now have less time to heal others or adjust to boss mechanics due to being stuck in casting animation more frequently. A Warrior brings nothing to the table to make up for the deficiency as a Tank role; Paladin/Warrior dps is a common subject, yet both are extremely similar and more importantly largely irrelevant compared to the numbers real DPS classes can put out.

Even if Warrior possessed the ability to make up the gap, reactive self-heals (based on 2.5 second GCD's and off GCD ability's between) will always be worse than instant on-hit damage reduction. And with the current Warrior ability lists and mechanics, it takes multiple off GCD abilities combined with on GCD abilities to even produce one worthwhile reactive self heal, which then gimps the healing deficiency further until you can build 5 more stack of Wrath.

[Zyrusticae]

Here are some ideas I've seen bandied about to fix warriors - at least, the ones I liked:

Giving defiance 10-15% passive mitigation OR increased healing, making Inner Beast heal amount increase based on the damage taken within the last five seconds, increasing the heal potency of Storm's Path considerably (to the point where it can let the healer drop a heal cast, for example), making Steel Cyclone provide a damage shield based on how many targets were hit, and/or giving Defiance a passive lifesteal... any combination of these would go a looong way to making up for Warrior's deficiency as a tank class, I think.

And what about buffing Foresight to not be completely bloody useless? That'd also be nice...

[Kaalan]

and/or giving Defiance a passive lifesteal

This. We won't be self healing tank until we're constantly leeching while tanking.
At the verry least, bloodpath should be move to defiance with its % leeching increased, and remplaced with a decent off gcd damaging skill, giving us the edge over PLD's DPS.

[Dhex]

Idea: Token based damage nullification.

How about an ability by which you can convert some of your Wrath Stacks to "Fury Motes" - Fury Mote : Each mote consumes and redirects 1 attack away from the Warrior. Up to 5 motes can be held. Duration 30sec Cast: Instant Recast: 20s Only available when Wrath are available. Consumes all Wrath stacks.

You can have Wrath V and Fury Mote V active simultaneously via -> Combos>Fury Mote Conversion>Infuriate.

Similar to Ninja tanking in FFXI using Utsusemi.



*Edit* Don't hate me for this!! <3 Just an idea...

This would (imo) maintain the unique style of WAR while giving it some true mitigation that makes Wrath utility active.

[TirionCrey]

Hiir...whenever I see you posting about how you are so awesome as a WAR and nobody else besides you is capable of doing it right...it makes me smile...

I haven't seen a single WAR on these forums that is so wrong about so many things as you, while claiming to be right about every single thing you say...it's just hilarious xD