Defiance still lacking in comparison to Shield Oath

[Faction]

You cannot have Higher HP, Health Regen, Higher Damage, AoE abilities, and equal mitigation, if that were the case, there would be zero reason to be a pld. Fact.

What is this argument even? No one is saying that the classes need to be balanced in the exact same way. Warrior doesn't have what it needs to make the damage trade off actually worth it in practically any situation. There is literally 0 mitigation. None. 0 big impact tank cooldowns. The disparity is fucking gigantic. I would love to have even 1 gladiator mitigation cooldown. Instead, we have foresight which paladin also gets, thrill of battle, which is good, and... um what? Featherfoot from monk? Meanwhile Gladiator gets 3 class-specific mitigation cooldowns along with 20% passive mitigation. You can do stuff with a Warrior, sure, but Paladin is still a lot better.

they designed these two DIFFERENT tanks to handle different situations.

Please explain what situation a warrior would be better? Again, whatever extra damage a warrior might offer (btw, this is just straight insignificant - over the course of a long boss fight it's like 10k damage) is completely offset by the fact that having to heal a gladiator less=healers can DPS more.

And Faction, I think you are the one hung up on the idea that being off tanks makes them worse. Being offtanks does not mean paladins are the "better" tanks, it just means they are better at being the main tank, Offtanking is still a role that needs to be filled, it's not about one being better than the other, they just have two different things they're good at.

Offtanking is not a role that NEEDS to be filled. You don't need an offtank for Ifrit, Garuda, or Titan HM's. I don't know about further than that, but I wouldn't be surprised if you don't need an offtank for a lot of other encounters either.

And guess what? Nowhere is it stated that warriors are offtanks. Try again.

[Sephirah]

Offtanking is not a role that NEEDS to be filled.

And guess what? Nowhere is it stated that warriors are offtanks. Try again.

I haven't got to 50 yet so obviously I can't answer this from experience, but I can assure you given the mechanics I've experienced so far, there will most certainly be encounters where offtanks are needed. You are so hung up on them not saying warriors are offtanks and taking that to mean that warrior should be able to do the exact same thing as a PLD, and that is just naive.

The fact is, PLD has more mitigation, that's what makes it a PLD instead of WAR. Your high hp pools, dmg, and health regen are what make you a WAR. They are different, and there may well be other fights later where WAR gets to shine. Giving WAR mitigation onpar with PLD though is not a good solution to your problem with being a WAR. Either accept what a WAR is in this game and deal with it, or switch to PLD.

[KoujiMoreno]

I haven't got to 50 yet so obviously I can't answer this from experience,

So, you haven't done any of the endgame stuff?

[Faction]

I haven't got to 50 yet so obviously I can't answer this from experience, but I can assure you given the mechanics I've experienced so far, there will most certainly be encounters where offtanks are needed. You are so hung up on them not saying warriors are offtanks and taking that to mean that warrior should be able to do the exact same thing as a PLD, and that is just naive.

The fact is, PLD has more mitigation, that's what makes it a PLD instead of WAR. Your high hp pools, dmg, and health regen are what make you a WAR. They are different, and there may well be other fights later where WAR gets to shine. Giving WAR mitigation onpar with PLD though is not a good solution to your problem with being a WAR. Either accept what a WAR is in this game and deal with it, or switch to PLD.

You're utterly incapable of doing anything but arguing with strawmen. Ignored.

[Sephirah]

So, you haven't done any of the endgame stuff?

Not yet, I'm so sorry I'm not max lvl and farming content 1 week after release, please forgive me. You can read my level on every post I've made no claim to already be clearing end-game content. But I am aware of it, I have been researching it while leveling. You can say this discredits everything I've said but you don't have to look any further for the proof than just playing the game, this thread wouldn't even exist in the first place if WAR didn't have less mitigation than PLD. You want a dev to tell you what is main and offtank, well play the game, that's how they tell you.

You're utterly incapable of doing anything but arguing with strawmen. Ignored.

lol

[Faction]

It's very nice to have someone with no experience tell us how offtanks are a "required role" and then say things like this:

Giving WAR mitigation onpar with PLD though is not a good solution to your problem with being a WAR.

Which no one in this thread ever said.

Lots of great, worthwhile contributions from the opposition in this thread. Btw that's a joke.

[KoujiMoreno]

Not yet, I'm so sorry I'm not max lvl and farming content 1 week after release, please forgive me

Wow, relax.

How can you argue your point, when you haven't experienced it for yourself? You're just going off what other people have said.

[Kitru]

The fact is, PLD has more mitigation, that's what makes it a PLD instead of WAR. Your high hp pools, dmg, and health regen are what make you a WAR.

You're conflating "mitigation" with "damage reduction". Damage reduction, self healing, avoidance, and increased healing received with increased max hp are all mechanisms that *contribute* to total mitigation.

When referring to the current state wherein WAR has lower mitigation, it's not a question of damage reduction; it's bringing up the holistic state of WAR mitigation: the increased max hp and healing benefits do not match up with the damage reduction benefits that PLD gets, thanks largely in part to the fact that it's only 15% +healing which is conditional and variable, requiring Wrath stacks. To have them be equal, WAR would need to have a full 25% +healing to go along with the max hp and self healing (PALs have shields, which are a mitigation advantage that WAR doesn't have and, surprisingly, doesn't get mentioned often; the self healing is most effective at offsetting *that* disadvantage rather than making up for the DR/HP/+heal based difference).

The CD suites are roughly equal, with PLD having the better spike CDs whereas the WAR has better average contribution CDs (longer durations and shorter CDs with weaker effects), which is fine.

[Sephirah]

Wow, relax.

How can you argue your point, when you haven't experienced it for yourself? You're just going off what other people have said.

I'm not trying to argue about anything. A good healer friend of mine has told me many times that they have no problems healing war or pld. I've never once said that WAR couldn't main tank, you're more than welcome to. However without the mitigation PLD gets it will be harder. This thread is proof of that. My whole point is that Faction is hung up on the idea that being an "offtank" means you're sub par, and that's not the case, it just means they designed the class differently to fill other roles. The way I see it Faction has 2 options, either learn how to deal with main tanking as a WAR and stop complaining that PLD has an "easier" time. Or switch to PLD for the mitigation. They don't need to change WAR to make it a better tank, if they did then as I mentioned before, there would be no reason to be a PLD.

[Kitru]

My whole point is that Faction is hung up on the idea that being an "offtank" means you're sub par, and that's not the case, it just means they designed the class differently to fill other roles.

The problem with this statement is that "offtank" *isn't* a role. The game pretty obviously follows the traditional holy trinity design: DPS, heals, tank. "Offtank" as a role doesn't fit within that confines because it's simply substandard DPS combined with substandard tanking. That's pretty much *the* definition of a sub par class within a game that utilizes class/role specialization: why bring a class that can't DPS *or* tank effectively?

The question isn't whether it's proper for the classes to be designed with different mechanics. The question is whether it's appropriate for said classes to end up with unequal functionality for their intended role due to the difference in their given mechanics. Damage isn't a major balancing factor for tanks, since it's not what you bring a tank for. Saying that the increase in tank DPS is a suitable exchange for a lower survivability is akin to suggesting that, for a healer class, having higher DPS is a suitable exchange for having worse heals.