Defiance still lacking in comparison to Shield Oath

[Sephirah]

Offtanking is not a role that NEEDS to be filled.

And guess what? Nowhere is it stated that warriors are offtanks. Try again.

I haven't got to 50 yet so obviously I can't answer this from experience, but I can assure you given the mechanics I've experienced so far, there will most certainly be encounters where offtanks are needed. You are so hung up on them not saying warriors are offtanks and taking that to mean that warrior should be able to do the exact same thing as a PLD, and that is just naive.

The fact is, PLD has more mitigation, that's what makes it a PLD instead of WAR. Your high hp pools, dmg, and health regen are what make you a WAR. They are different, and there may well be other fights later where WAR gets to shine. Giving WAR mitigation onpar with PLD though is not a good solution to your problem with being a WAR. Either accept what a WAR is in this game and deal with it, or switch to PLD.

[KoujiMoreno]

I haven't got to 50 yet so obviously I can't answer this from experience,

So, you haven't done any of the endgame stuff?

[Sephirah]

So, you haven't done any of the endgame stuff?

Not yet, I'm so sorry I'm not max lvl and farming content 1 week after release, please forgive me. You can read my level on every post I've made no claim to already be clearing end-game content. But I am aware of it, I have been researching it while leveling. You can say this discredits everything I've said but you don't have to look any further for the proof than just playing the game, this thread wouldn't even exist in the first place if WAR didn't have less mitigation than PLD. You want a dev to tell you what is main and offtank, well play the game, that's how they tell you.

You're utterly incapable of doing anything but arguing with strawmen. Ignored.

lol

[KoujiMoreno]

Not yet, I'm so sorry I'm not max lvl and farming content 1 week after release, please forgive me

Wow, relax.

How can you argue your point, when you haven't experienced it for yourself? You're just going off what other people have said.

[Sephirah]

Wow, relax.

How can you argue your point, when you haven't experienced it for yourself? You're just going off what other people have said.

I'm not trying to argue about anything. A good healer friend of mine has told me many times that they have no problems healing war or pld. I've never once said that WAR couldn't main tank, you're more than welcome to. However without the mitigation PLD gets it will be harder. This thread is proof of that. My whole point is that Faction is hung up on the idea that being an "offtank" means you're sub par, and that's not the case, it just means they designed the class differently to fill other roles. The way I see it Faction has 2 options, either learn how to deal with main tanking as a WAR and stop complaining that PLD has an "easier" time. Or switch to PLD for the mitigation. They don't need to change WAR to make it a better tank, if they did then as I mentioned before, there would be no reason to be a PLD.

[Kitru]

My whole point is that Faction is hung up on the idea that being an "offtank" means you're sub par, and that's not the case, it just means they designed the class differently to fill other roles.

The problem with this statement is that "offtank" *isn't* a role. The game pretty obviously follows the traditional holy trinity design: DPS, heals, tank. "Offtank" as a role doesn't fit within that confines because it's simply substandard DPS combined with substandard tanking. That's pretty much *the* definition of a sub par class within a game that utilizes class/role specialization: why bring a class that can't DPS *or* tank effectively?

The question isn't whether it's proper for the classes to be designed with different mechanics. The question is whether it's appropriate for said classes to end up with unequal functionality for their intended role due to the difference in their given mechanics. Damage isn't a major balancing factor for tanks, since it's not what you bring a tank for. Saying that the increase in tank DPS is a suitable exchange for a lower survivability is akin to suggesting that, for a healer class, having higher DPS is a suitable exchange for having worse heals.

[Faction]

I haven't got to 50 yet so obviously I can't answer this from experience, but I can assure you given the mechanics I've experienced so far, there will most certainly be encounters where offtanks are needed. You are so hung up on them not saying warriors are offtanks and taking that to mean that warrior should be able to do the exact same thing as a PLD, and that is just naive.

The fact is, PLD has more mitigation, that's what makes it a PLD instead of WAR. Your high hp pools, dmg, and health regen are what make you a WAR. They are different, and there may well be other fights later where WAR gets to shine. Giving WAR mitigation onpar with PLD though is not a good solution to your problem with being a WAR. Either accept what a WAR is in this game and deal with it, or switch to PLD.

You're utterly incapable of doing anything but arguing with strawmen. Ignored.

[Kitru]

The fact is, PLD has more mitigation, that's what makes it a PLD instead of WAR. Your high hp pools, dmg, and health regen are what make you a WAR.

You're conflating "mitigation" with "damage reduction". Damage reduction, self healing, avoidance, and increased healing received with increased max hp are all mechanisms that *contribute* to total mitigation.

When referring to the current state wherein WAR has lower mitigation, it's not a question of damage reduction; it's bringing up the holistic state of WAR mitigation: the increased max hp and healing benefits do not match up with the damage reduction benefits that PLD gets, thanks largely in part to the fact that it's only 15% +healing which is conditional and variable, requiring Wrath stacks. To have them be equal, WAR would need to have a full 25% +healing to go along with the max hp and self healing (PALs have shields, which are a mitigation advantage that WAR doesn't have and, surprisingly, doesn't get mentioned often; the self healing is most effective at offsetting *that* disadvantage rather than making up for the DR/HP/+heal based difference).

The CD suites are roughly equal, with PLD having the better spike CDs whereas the WAR has better average contribution CDs (longer durations and shorter CDs with weaker effects), which is fine.

[Faction]

The CD suites are roughly equal, with PLD having the better spike CDs whereas the WAR has better average contribution CDs (longer durations and shorter CDs with weaker effects), which is fine.

This is completely untrue.

Warrior cooldowns are Thrill of Battle which is very good, Foresight which Paladin can use, Bloodbath which is entirely inconsequential (and paladin can also use it), and Featherfoot which is pulled from monk. Other cooldowns are mostly damage based, aside from Infuriate which can be used to give you another snap heal. These aren't even remotely up to par with the 3 paladin mitigation cooldowns. Hell, Covalescense? Crappy 5th string Gladiator cooldown, while for us, it's one of our best. Says a lot.

[Kitru]

Warrior cooldowns are Thrill of Battle which is very good, Foresight which Paladin can use, Bloodbath which is entirely inconsequential, and Featherfoot which is pulled from monk. Other cooldowns are mostly damage based, aside from Infuriate which can be used to give you another snap heal. These aren't even remotely up to par with the 3 paladin mitigation cooldowns.

You're drastically underestimating the value of the healing CDs. Bloodbath heals for a lot more than anyone ever seems to give it credit for, especially when it's stacked up with the numerous damage increase CDs that they get (Unchained, Berserk, Internal Release), not to mention Convalescence.

On top of that, you're also ignoring the trait modifications that apply to the given CDs. Compare the CD suites with more than just names (and you *do* have to factor in the additional abilities since those are pretty much requisite balancing concerns; PAL has a great default suite but it gets a *lot* less from its additionals than WAR does) and you'll see: WAR CDs have better uptime but lesser effects while active.

WARs get Bloodbath (30 every 90), Foresight (20 every 90), and Thrill of Battle (10 every 120) by default. For additionals, Featherfoot (15 every 90), Convalescence (20 every 120), Awareness (15? every 120) and/or Mantra (15 every 120). That's 122% total potential uptime. Toss out Awareness (questionable value) and you get 110%.

PALs get Hallowed Ground (10 every 420), Rampart (20 every 90), Convalescence (20 every 120), Awareness (25 every 120), Sentinel (10 every 180), and Bulwark (15 every 180). For additionals, all they get is Foresight (20 every 120) and Bloodbath (15 every 90). That's 109% potential uptime. Toss out Awareness (questionable value) and you get 88%. Toss out Bloodbath (questionable value thanks to the lower DPS and fewer DPS CDs) and it goes down to 71%.

WARs don't have the same *spike* CD functionality that PALs get, but they don't *need* to have the same spike functionality to have an equally valuable CD suite. The fact that they can maintain survivability CDs on a near constant basis is a substantial advantage.