Clarification on PLD = Main tank WAR = Off tank

[Excalipoor]

So I start out I Tomahawk, pull 3 mobs, line em up and use Overpower, once for each mob and probably 5 seconds later I'm about 100 HP and the healer has to cure bomb me. I hit Berserk, Foresight, Bloodbath, Heavy Swing + Main and get back up to full - but unless I do that action and get cure bombed, I die instantly I mean I have all pink gear on for MRD/WAR at my lvl that is good.

And so then I go into combo rotation - Heavy Swing -> Skull Sunder -> Heavy Swing -> Maim and stay on one target. And I can tank and keep hate on one mob perfectly fine. But the adds that either a ARC or a LNC start attacking without staying on my target force me to go and grab them so I can keep everything on me and I have either do Overpower to redirect everything or use my single target skills. I guess my only problem is keep all the hate on me ----- because I feel like I'm supposed to be tanking every single mob ---- but while doing that I still am thrashed hard lol

[Churchill]

I didn't really have trouble at that level and my gear was scaled worse than the gear that drops in the dungeon.

But your weapon damage is important, if that's underleveled then you will have a harder time holding threat.

This is irrelevant to Halatali, but later one what I'll generally do is Flash, Flash, Start Wrath V (or maintain via Berserk, Vengeance, or Maim combo) then Overpower 1-2 more times. I'll switch to the second target that I mark, perform Eye of the Storm, then switch to the third target and do the same thing. If still more than 3 targets, Overpower is going to be best (though costly on TP, DDs should be killing mobs faster if you're running out).

At that level, you're going to ride Overpower and Flash, but you also shouldn't be getting blown up by anything in a dungeon until maybe Stone Vigil.

[Kitru]

Paladin has: Block, damage mitigation. Shield Oath,-20% damage taken.

Except that WARs pack 25% additional hp and 15% increased healing received (or at least they *should* maintain 5 stacks of Defiance with religious tenacity). A 20% reduction in incoming damage is the exact equivalent of a 25% increase in max hp, from a spike damage survival standpoint, and the increased healing received, coupled with the WAR self heals makes up for the difference in required external healing.

The only advantage that a PAL really has over a WAR is the block chance and, when we're discussing spike damage, you need to operate off of the assumption that the RNG simply hates you because it will inevitably fail. At that point, the difference is only a question of mean mitigation over time, wherein the WAR comes back with the superior CD suite (thanks to shorter CDs and higher uptimes).

[Churchill]

It really isn't, lol.

HP and -dmg are completely separate stats and perform completely separate roles. From a spike standpoint, sure, they are similar in their operation.

From a realistic standpoint, HP is purely and simply burst prevention. To run X dungeon/raid/primal, the tank will need Y HP. Any HP beyond this point is wasted.

-dmg taken is a stat that effects the tank over time, and by its nature the healers MP pools, the bards DPS, etc. In addition to this Paladin has the other list of tools to soften the blow of any large, undodgeable attack and they're all fire and forget.

The discussion isn't that Defiance HP buff and Shield Oaths -dmg buff don't function as the same thing when hit by a big ability, but that they don't function as the same thing in a sustained engagement (which they do not). On top of that, the Paladin is more sustainable when left to themselves in the case of emergencies whereas a Warrior is most definitely left in the wind.

[Kitru]

HP and -dmg are completely separate stats and perform completely separate roles.

Except that we're not simply comparing +hp to -dmg. We're comparing +hp *and* +healing to -dmg. A WAR takes 25% more damage than a PAL takes while having a 25% larger pool of health (so that spike damage is equivalent) and receiving roughly 25% more from a given quantity of healing (based upon Defiance and self-healing). It's a complete break even. At worst, it means that a WAR requires a *little* more healing over time (15% of the +healing is effectively baseline so we're talking about WAR self-healing having to equate to 8% of total healing output to reach absolute parity) while having the same spike performance.

From a mathematical standpoint, there is *no* difference between increasing HP and healing received by 25% and decreasing damage taken by 20%. That's not opinion. That's mathematical fact such that the argument that WARs are somehow inferior at tanking hard hitting content makes no sense other than WARs requiring more player input to achieve optimal survivability (i.e. using and abusing CDs and combos to affect survivability rather than trusting passives and reserving CDs for emergencies).

As to the difference between block and the CD suite, I'd rather have the CD suite so that I can actually control access to my superior mitigation rather than trusting it to the RNG to work when I need/want it.

[Gaakt]

Wars +HP is soso if bosses start at some point hitting for % of hp damage rather than flat damage. Until then, I do like warriors. I've tanked now everything up to Vale 2 times or more as a paladin and I've loved it. And it is true, it is quite easy to tank as a paladin at the moment. Except when you get those overly zealous BLM or BRD who think they are gods gift to dps and think tanks can still hold AoE agro on everything as well as in other MMO:s ever. Then we have an issue.
I must say of Defiance, the MRD skill that gives +20% defence. I'd like if maybe, there would be in the mrd traits a trait, that gives the skill also + magic defence. Then I'd say it'd be an awesome skill for marauders/warriors. As it stands, magic damage is a bitch to handle in general.

[Devilair]

Didn't count that because I didn't count warriors 50% damage increase from berserk. Warrior can keep up maim and storms eye whenever they want.

PLD is without question better at interrupting bosses though. Warrior needs the help of another person to keep most fights locked out. Its something you can do with teamwork with a war but pld can do it all by themselves.

Well it depends, both our interrupts are on the gcd, which is VERY annoying, plus most bosses completely resist pacification and stun
Tbh i'd rather have shield bash out of the gdr on a 15sec cd, but able to interrupt bosses at least if not stun them.

[UrbanLucrece]

PLD vs WAR as tank and which generate most enmity is interesting in itself.

But: As in a team play to make a fight go smoothly it's not just about the tank generating enmity it's as much about other classes holding back so the hate is on the tank. Many people forget this.

[MissE]

Well it depends, both our interrupts are on the gcd, which is VERY annoying, plus most bosses completely resist pacification and stun
Tbh i'd rather have shield bash out of the gdr on a 15sec cd, but able to interrupt bosses at least if not stun them.

I don't know. As a WAR, I rather have my stun on GCD than a 30 second cool down...

[Sakasa]

Well if you look at party composition there are certain setups that favor War or Pld more. For instance Mnk can increase war already healthy static bonus to healing recieved with mantra but at the same time pld would get the greater benefit from that when paired with a whm but sch because of the potential dmg reduction would be higher with a war as there is so much more health with thrill of battle. Also there are other things like drg dives effect stun but also are a major source of damage so war would benefit from that with their long stun cd . But a brd instead would be feasible for a pld whm combo and as well as a blm or smn dps. Plds cover is a skill War can't imitate in any fashion so a less squishy party may prove valube to the head smash that is war tanking. To be honest because the War can potentially out self heal the Pld from the word go I'm not to worried about another Darnus like requirement from a boss so specific in tactics that a Pld is needed in every sound strategy.