History repeats itself: Time for the Great Archer Nerf of 2011

[Xzen]

If trifurcate makes you wait the same time, then it is better than doing 3 attacks, because you can fully buff those 3 attacks, so those same 3 attacks do more damage, and reward more tp.
Multishot is probably a losing proposition, but regardless, if at the end of the day they do consistently more damage for less risk in 90% of the situations, then they will replace most of the other DD.

It doesnt really have to be a direct nerf, if they change the way parties work, like more multiple grouped parties, and bosses that have henchmen and etc for most of the games content, then rangers damage will come at the price of survivabilty and the usefulness of off tanking power. But if the game is like FFXI where most of the mobs have no ranged attacks, tanks can completely and totally hold hate, and your mostly fighting 1 mob at a time, then you do have to balance DD according to those conditions.

I wouldn't bother wasting my stamina on multi shot or Trifuricate mid fight because it's bad stamina management to do so. It's better to save buffs for TP skills.

[Xzen]

Lol you're the one playing archer poorly if multishot is actually just the stamina cost of 3 shots combined. Fail. What a load of crap. You'd never see that kind of spoiled enhancement on any other job, but the chronically self-entitled ranged attackers.

Oh whats this? The straw man tactic? You lost. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[Shampooo]

multishot is actually more stamina than a normal shot. good to use in small groups if you wanna put a light shot > light shot debuff on (more chances to hit)

[Peregrine]

No, it's just proof that you don't even know how to maximize archer.
Raging strike, ferocity, and blindside stack to hits 2 and 3 of a multishot, and you're complaining that multishot is a waste of time because it costs the stamina of as many hits as you shoot.

I don't even think you understand what I just said, let alone the significance of it.

[Peregrine]

multishot is actually more stamina than a normal shot. good to use in small groups if you wanna put a light shot > light shot debuff on (more chances to hit)

Good, then. It had better be. Gee, and the shots can be used in battle regimen. Let's spoil some more archers, I don't think they've gotten enough.

[Xzen]

No, it's just proof that you don't even know how to maximize archer.
Raging strike, ferocity, and blindside stack to hits 2 and 3 of a multishot, and you're complaining that multishot is a waste of time because it costs the stamina of as many hits as you shoot.

I don't even think you understand what I just said, let alone the significance of it.

I'm pretty sure I use all those buffs every time I use multi shot. However in drawn out fights I used them on TP abilities and I don't waste them on trying to use multi shot mid fight.

[Rentahamster]

People are operating under assinine mantra when it's not even true. A mage's functional defense is higher than a DD's, because the mob can't hit them at that range.

Yeah, that means the tank is doing his job well.

[Joe_Cool]

That's exactly what you'll do. You're just extremely pissed that someone sees exactly what you're trying to do, and unlike you they're not impressed with your grand schemes to rule the endgame.

A. Kite it!
B. Token tank! Not that one, the one that can heal itself and punishing barb!
C. Ranger ranger ranger ranger ranger ranger ranger ranger ranger ranger ranger! UHranger ranger ranger ranger ranger ranger.

GET THAT PUGILIST OUT OF HERE. Waste of a Victimize ability!

Extremely pissed? Not at all. To be honest, you call out nerf nerf nerf the ARC but in reality, all the melee's and ARC bring something to the table. You have LNC with abilties such as Comrade of Arms which increases the DPS of ALL the DD in the party by increasing their TP generation and Speed Surge which gives itself haste and replenishes the other DD's health on each attack. You have the MRD which is great for clearing multiple mobs (better than an ARC), GLA which is good at holding hate and taking the brunt of the attacks, PGL with its enfeebling WS's that help quite a bit and can also lower enmity of other DD. You make it sound as though ARC is greater than ALL DD in the game in every situation but that simply isn't true. You are blowing things wayyyyy out of proportion. There are situations where an ARC may be better than other DD but there are also situations to where the other DD are BETTER than an ARC.

And as far a job/class balances, the 2 mages are really the only ones that need it. As both of them, yes CON too, are uber jobs that are greater than all of the other classes.


And as far as your parse stats. You should keep in mind that there are many variences to that kind of thing like:

1.) Skill-Each player has a certain skill and will do different dmg's based on that skill.

2.) Gear-Of course affects the DPS output.

3.) Point Allotment-Yeah yeah yeah I know it's kind of broken but it does mean something and does affect DPS.

4.) Luck-It's a matter of luck on rather a WS critical hits or even misses.


Parse is great for that extra competition between a group, but doesnt really hold any water when trying to use it to see which job/class is better at DPS because like I mentioned earlier, different people have different skill, gear, point allotment, luck, etc. and it also doesnt take in consideration the extra DPS something like a LNC's Comrade in Arms creates. In other words, it doesn't add the extra dmg that other DD do from the LNC's Comrade in Arms to said LNC.

[Peregrine]

You're actually quite wrong on all fronts, as already discussed in the thread.
A. Nothing that the other DD s bring to the table makes up for archer out-DD'ing them. You're saying nothing new about any class that hasn't already been shot down as an excuse as to why archer should be the top dd. Sorry. Go read the thread. Not even worth responding to at this point if you use the phrase "bring to the table" any more. Exhausted discussion line. Impotent argument.
B. There actually is no good situation where meleers are better than archer. Again, stop making up excuses. At endgame, which is 90% of what matters, no DD is better than any archer. Stop pointing at crabs. It's just as sad as you pointing to marauder as a case that they can "clear the room." No they can't. Stop making excuses by literally interpreting the skill descriptions, open your eyes, and see the FACT that no marauder is being used or invited to "clear the room." Period. So stop arguing that stupid idea. In fights that matter, meleers do not. Period.
C. The parser pretty much tells you the real story, and is spot-on and reliable. Same results, every time at NMs so your agument that it varies is just false. All these meleers have the best gear, so your argument that gear differences is irrelevant because there is no gear difference. Essentially you just don't want to believe the parse data because you don't like what it proves.

Actually, you don't want to believe the parse data because you LIKE what it proves and you just don't want everyone to know what you're up to.

All-around defeated argument. Three archers generates a free, phantom meleer. Fact.

[Physic]

Extremely pissed? Not at all. To be honest, you call out nerf nerf nerf the ARC but in reality, all the melee's and ARC bring something to the table. You have LNC with abilties such as Comrade of Arms which increases the DPS of ALL the DD in the party by increasing their TP generation and Speed Surge which gives itself haste and replenishes the other DD's health on each attack. You have the MRD which is great for clearing multiple mobs (better than an ARC), GLA which is good at holding hate and taking the brunt of the attacks, PGL with its enfeebling WS's that help quite a bit and can also lower enmity of other DD. You make it sound as though ARC is greater than ALL DD in the game in every situation but that simply isn't true. You are blowing things wayyyyy out of proportion. There are situations where an ARC may be better than other DD but there are also situations to where the other DD are BETTER than an ARC.

And as far a job/class balances, the 2 mages are really the only ones that need it. As both of them, yes CON too, are uber jobs that are greater than all of the other classes.


And as far as your parse stats. You should keep in mind that there are many variences to that kind of thing like:

1.) Skill-Each player has a certain skill and will do different dmg's based on that skill.

2.) Gear-Of course affects the DPS output.

3.) Point Allotment-Yeah yeah yeah I know it's kind of broken but it does mean something and does affect DPS.

4.) Luck-It's a matter of luck on rather a WS critical hits or even misses.


Parse is great for that extra competition between a group, but doesnt really hold any water when trying to use it to see which job/class is better at DPS because like I mentioned earlier, different people have different skill, gear, point allotment, luck, etc. and it also doesnt take in consideration the extra DPS something like a LNC's Comrade in Arms creates. In other words, it doesn't add the extra dmg that other DD do from the LNC's Comrade in Arms to said LNC.

difference is most of those abilities are available to any class, what makes archer unique is two things

Ranged attacks
and archer only abilities which are:
any special arrows, (at this point i dont know if any exist)
Multishot trifurcate close shot and farshot and various archer only weaponskills

comrade isnt unique to lnc, the only unique to pug WS are seismic shock and Simian thrash i believe.
Its the weapons innate abilities, and the 1 discipline only skills that make you better. There is no real reason for Archer to have more damage, unless having less defense is actually a factor in combat. So either it should be a factor, or other DDs need more offense or archer needs less offense.

This is all supposing they actually do have more offense, which regardless what he says will be show with parsers and whatnot, as well by eyeballing it. If its true its going to keep coming up.

If it is true, i hope they have already accounted for it in the new battle system, but since we dont know that yet, its a valid point.