History repeats itself: Time for the Great Archer Nerf of 2011

[Peregrine]

By that logic the range needs to be reduced on all spells to melee range or nerfed for THM and CON.

Haha you feel free to do that. Make a close-quarter mage. That'd actually be kindof cool.
But my guess is that the mages would rage if they were tethered within AoE range.

Let's be perfectly honest here though. Mages and archers aren't glass. They don't get hit, which is something a meleer can't choose. Who'se more glass? The meleer who takes 1200 damage, or the mage who takes 0?

Gee. Who has higher defense there? THE MAGE.

People are operating under assinine mantra when it's not even true. A mage's functional defense is higher than a DD's, because the mob can't hit them at that range.

[Physic]

You can't look at it on the scale of 200 archers or swordsman. Your max party size is 8 people. I bet, if you did any research, you would find that you can inflict WAY more damage with a bow than a sword. It comes down to the amount of force you can deal. You can apply more force with a bow than you can a sword.

Ehhh you may be able to get a lot of force over a small area, but you can do more damage with close range weapons. a bullet through the head is often lethal, but a sword through the head, probably has a higher rate of mortality.

Realism aside though, archer shouldnt be the most dmg over time versus other dps, at best they should be equal, in all truth they should probably have less, and more utility, or have bigger bursts, but lower damage over time, with arrows specifically anyway.
Im not saying every job should be the same, the mechanism of play should be different in all, and in specific situations some may have a small advantage, but no DD should over all out perform other DD in the majority of situations.

Im not saying archers are doing this now, but if they actually are, then its a problem.

[Peregrine]

Peregrine have you actually parsed an Archer on an NM fight because I am hearing a lot of talk with nothing to back it up?

Let's say I know that archers die in the middle of NM fights, run back from crystal, play weak, and still come out 5% ahead of the meleers. How I know that could be pen in paper, or it could be a parser.

Either way, yes. I know that an archer beats the other meleers by 5-7% party contribution at NMs in a full team. Meleers almost always hang around 17-19% of damage. Our nukers are at about 20-22% Archers 23-27%.

[AlexiaKidd]

Let's say I know that archers die in the middle of NM fights, run back from crystal, play weak, and still come out 5% ahead of the meleers. How I know that could be pen in paper, or it could be a parser.

Either way, yes. I know that an archer beats the other meleers by 5-7% party contribution at NMs in a full team. Meleers almost always hang around 17-19% of damage. Our nukers are at about 20-22% Archers 23-27%.

So we just take your word for it then?

[Peregrine]

So we just take your word for it then?

Yeah. you pretty much have to. Do you gather this data?
I'm simply quantifying what we already know, which is why everyone is levelling archer right now.
The subjective perception that archers are overpowered turns out to be correct, objectively.

There is no objective point in a DD meleer, except to gather abilities for archer. That conclusion rang true for FFXI, and I have already chronicled what the inevitable response was to that fact. That conclusion now rings true for FFXIV. The same thing that happened there will happen here.

Archer needs placed below the damage capability of all of the close-quarter meleers. I'm sorry. It's for your own good.

[AlexiaKidd]

Yeah. you pretty much have to. Do you gather this data?
I'm simply quantifying what we already know, which is why everyone is levelling archer right now.
The subjective perception that archers are overpowered turns out to be correct, objectively.

There is no objective point in a DD meleer, except to gather abilities for archer. That conclusion rang true for FFXI, and I have already chronicled what the inevitable response was to that fact. That conclusion now rings true for FFXIV. The same thing that happened there will happen here.

Archer needs placed below the damage capability of all of the close-quarter meleers. I'm sorry. It's for your own good.

And have you already forgotten the video Doctor Mog made especially for you showing you that you can achieve the same damage output on PUG?

[Peregrine]

And have you already forgotten the video Doctor Mog made especially for you showing you that you can achieve the same damage output on PUG?

Show me data that I give a damn about. Spike damage isn't very relevant data compared to what I just told you, where archers come out on top of meleers consistently throughout all the nm fights. In actuality, archers come out on top of pugilists more than that video actually shows. Which it still shows archers coming out on top. What was it, 1200 versus 900?

Archer beats pug by more than 20% I'm looking at the data right now. 18% versus 24%, which is an absolute difference at the great buffalo of 6% or a relative difference of 33% more effective. You just think. I know.

I already know that 3 archers creates 1 phantom meleer. The data simply proves it. So does the collective mass of the population, which has its own intelligence on-par with data analysis power.


You think whatever you want. Reality will go on without you and reality will be based on reality no matter what you think. I know for a fact that at R60-65 NMs, having three archers in a party is like having a free meleer that doesn't take up a party slot. Therefore, a group of glad, archerx6, thaumaturge has the damage power of a 10-man team with none of the AoE danger.

Br-o-o-o-oken. Infallably. Mathematically. Broken.

[AlexiaKidd]

Show me data that I give a damn about. Spike damage isn't very relevant data compared to what I just told you, where archers come out on top of meleers consistently throughout all the nm fights.

You just think. I know.

Also you are forgetting that Archer's have access to their Multi-hit WS's which is where the bulk of their DMG output comes from

[Physic]

And have you already forgotten the video Doctor Mog made especially for you showing you that you can achieve the same damage output on PUG?

thing is, if they actually get the same dmg, something is a bit off, PUG has victimize as his actual job skill, and blindside as well, this either means dmg isnt reduced for weapon skills, or raging strike makes up the difference. Also he didnt show pug 50 we can assume pug might catch to the dmg but we dont know that.

Other thing is, Pug doesnt have multishot or trifurcate, these skills dont require tp to use, and allow you to take better advantage of stacking buffs,
trifurcate and multishot btw, are even better than just thier damage, because since TP gained is effected by dmg done, the ability to get a lot of dmg in conjunction with 3 attacks at once, means you get 3x the tp, and can weaponskill with that tp.

now other jobs get other useful skills, maybe it balances out, but it doesnt really come down to getting equal weapon skill dmg with victimize, in fact the WS is not really the key, its really multishot trifurcate and multi hit weaponskills like quick knock make excellent use of the buffs. Its honestly a pretty cool game mechanic and playstyle difference for archer, but perhaps it needs some balancing. Im in favor of buffs versus nerfs, so possibly adding some more DD related class specific stuff that makes each DD play differently and get similar or more dmg to archers would be a good plan, If the nymbers back him up

[Peregrine]

Sure, buff lancer, pugilist, and marauder. Switch it. Have the archers do 18% of the party damage and each meleer do 24%. Have 6 meleers be the power of a 10 man party as 8, and have 6 archers be the power of a 6 man party as 8. Why? Well, because the archer setup doesn't get hit with any Aoes except the tank.

I don't even agree that that's fair, but at least it's closer.

If you shirk intended difficulty in AoEs by taking a bunch of archers to the fight, you should have a hard time killing the enemy in time before it rages. Killing powerful enemies with AoEs should be for those who can stand there and take it. Not for people who run out of range and shirk it.

I think a mob should be able to check what kind of balance-heavy party you have and defend itself appropriately. Half the party is archers? Have it cast ranged attack defense up abilities that can't be scoured. 3/4 of the damage is ranged? Activate a ranged AoE that wipes them.

You know what I'd do if I were being attacked by a bunch of archers and mages from 30 meters if I were a dragon? Flamethrower arc, right in a circle. Pwned. If you want to fight, COME HERE. Staying out there...well you be my guest.