I like the market wards

[Kaedan]

Being able to buy what I want as fast as I can:

pros - I save save 15 seconds on every transaction.

cons - ???


Being able to buy what I want a little bit more slowly:

pros - ???

cons - I don't save 15 seconds on every transaction.

-Visiting a retainer allows sellers to potentially sell more product.

-Visiting the market wards allows you to see what other retainers (besides your target) are selling (since the NPCs "wear" the items).

-Visiting the markets make it feel more "real" and improves immersion.

Just because you think saving time is the only important thing doesn't mean that there aren't pros and cons. Sorry, your opinion is not the only one.

[Rentahamster]

-Visiting a retainer allows sellers to potentially sell more product.

No it doesn't. Hardly anyone makes secondary purchases from a retainer, and even if a player did see another product on a retainer that he's interested in buying, he would first go back to the item search to make sure someone else isn't selling it for cheaper.

-Visiting the market wards allows you to see what other retainers (besides your target) are selling (since the NPCs "wear" the items).

Searching for the specific item I want enables me to do this faster and more efficiently. Being able to see all the items in my desired rank range at one time enables me to do this faster and more efficiently.

-Visiting the markets make it feel more "real" and improves immersion.

Subjective. One player's "realness" is another player's inconvenience and frustration. There are much more of the latter than the former.

Just because you think saving time is the only important thing doesn't mean that there aren't pros and cons.

I didn't say it was the ONLY important thing. However, "saving time" is a concept that factors heavily into other concepts like "usability" and "convenience", which ultimately have a very large impact on the general area of "fun" and "enjoyment".

I also did list pros and cons in my post. I did not ignore them.

Sorry, your opinion is not the only one.

I did not say it is. This statement also applies to yourself, FYI.


Besides, this is not an "either-or" argument. Just because you would be able to buy stuff directly from the item search, doesn't mean that you can't also physically visit the retainers if you wanted to.

[Kaedan]

No it doesn't. Hardly anyone makes secondary purchases from a retainer, and even if a player did see another product on a retainer that he's interested in buying, he would first go back to the item search to make sure someone else isn't selling it for cheaper.

This is a laughable response, I'm sorry. Please show me the data you've collected that proves that "hardly anyone" makes secondary purchases from a retainer. When you do that, you can make ridiculous claims like this.

But besides that, the potential for secondary sales is still a valid point and is still a pro, despite you not wanting to admit it.

Searching for the specific item I want enables me to do this faster and more efficiently. Being able to see all the items in my desired rank range at one time enables me to do this faster and more efficiently.

Actually, there is nothing faster than seeing an item out in the open. The point is, if you searched for one item, went to that retainer, then while moving through the MWs you see another item you're looking for, you can check it out.

Subjective. One player's "realness" is another player's inconvenience and frustration. There are much more of the latter than the former.

Of course it's subjective. Doesn't invalidate it as a possible benefit for players. Just because it's not a pro for you doesn't mean it's not valid. Also, you've fallen into the "unsupported statement" trap again. Please provide your data and evidence that there are more people interested in saving 15 seconds than players who like the realism of it.

I didn't say it was the ONLY important thing. However, "saving time" is a concept that factors heavily into other concepts like "usability" and "convenience", which ultimately have a very large impact on the general area of "fun" and "enjoyment".

It's the only aspect you really concentrate on, so you have implied that it's really the only important thing. Especially since it's the only pro you list.

I also did list pros and cons in my post. I did not ignore them.

That's bull. You list one pro and then ??? for the rest.

[Rentahamster]

This is a laughable response, I'm sorry. Please show me the data you've collected that proves that "hardly anyone" makes secondary purchases from a retainer. When you do that, you can make ridiculous claims like this.

I have just as much hard data to base my "ridiculous claims" on as you do.

8 months of experience with this game from beta and talking about it with many of the people I encounter in game is what I use to assert my statements.

But besides that, the potential for secondary sales is still a valid point and is still a pro, despite you not wanting to admit it.

The only time there was a high chance of a secondary sale was back before we had item search. Back then, you were overjoyed when you finally found stuff for sale that you actually wanted, so you would buy it from that same retainer.

Now that we have item search, most people search for the item, buy from the cheapest retainer, search for the next item, buy from the cheapest retainer, etc.

Actually, there is nothing faster than seeing an item out in the open. The point is, if you searched for one item, went to that retainer, then while moving through the MWs you see another item you're looking for, you can check it out.

Yes there is. You're not always gonna find the exact things you're looking for when browsing retainers at random. The item search has cut down seek times for everyone by a lot. Making items purchasable from the item search would cut down the retrieval time as well, making things even faster and more convenient.

Of course it's subjective. Doesn't invalidate it as a possible benefit for players. Just because it's not a pro for you doesn't mean it's not valid.

Because it's subjective, we can't exactly examine the pros and cons in an objective manner, now can we? In order to do that, we must measure the objective pros and cons.

Therefore, if we want to do a fair and objective analysis so that we know how everyone will be equally affected, can't use subjective metrics in the analysis.

"saving 15 seconds" - objective metric. Same for all players and can be quantified.

"menus are faster to load then an instance full of NPC retainers" - also objective, this fact will be experienced similarly by all those with similar PC specs.

"menus are less likely to crash than an instanced ward full of NPC retainers" - objective, and the experience is shared exactly the same amongst all players.

"retainers add realism and immersion" - subjective and no way to truly know if this holds true for most or only some of the population.

"Visiting a retainer allows sellers to potentially sell more product." - no way of truly knowing unless you can record data on how many people make secondary purchases from a retainer besides the item they searched for vs. those who don't.

Also, you've fallen into the "unsupported statement" trap again. Please provide your data and evidence that there are more people interested in saving 15 seconds than players who like the realism of it.

If I have fallen into any kind of "trap", all you've done is drag yourself into it as well. You have just as much hard data as I do to support your subjective claims (which is why they're subjective) .

It's the only aspect you really concentrate on, so you have implied that it's really the only important thing. Especially since it's the only pro you list.

That's bull. You list one pro and then ??? for the rest.

Let's go back to the original statement of yours that I was analyzing, shall we?

As for getting the item instantly... I'm sorry, but I just find this to be a silly argument. "Oh no! I can't possibly be expected to actually move my character for a few seconds to pick up my item!" Those 15 seconds could have been spent killing a mob! Damn you SE for wasting 15 seconds of my time! I demand instant satisfaction since those 15 seconds are very important to me!"

This is a very simple statement with very simple parameters. You comment on the ability to purchase an item instantly, and give, as you yourself said, the benefit of saving 15 seconds.

Due to this very simple scenario, this is the only objective fact we can take from it, and thus it should be considered heavily. It's an argument for saving time vs. not saving time. Hence, my response:

Being able to buy what I want as fast as I can:

pros - I save save 15 seconds on every transaction.

cons - ???


Being able to buy what I want a little bit more slowly:

pros - ???

cons - I don't save 15 seconds on every transaction.

Ceteris paribus, saving 15 seconds of time is better than not saving 15 seconds of time, unless it is somehow not beneficial to the player to save time.

[Leowilde]

Hardly anyone makes secondary purchases from a retainer, and even if a player did see another product on a retainer that he's interested in buying, he would first go back to the item search to make sure someone else isn't selling it for cheaper.

I respectfully beg to differ. More than once have I bought items from a retainer other than what I originally came for, without checking the other prices - that is if the item is properly priced.

[Rentahamster]

I respectfully beg to differ. More than once have I bought items from a retainer other than what I originally came for, without checking the other prices - that is if the item is properly priced.

The point of the matter was not if this activity occurs at all. It does happens from time to time. However, how many times does this happen vs. all the times you buy something right after searching for it? Hardly ever, by comparison.

[Physic]

No it doesn't. Hardly anyone makes secondary purchases from a retainer, and even if a player did see another product on a retainer that he's interested in buying, he would first go back to the item search to make sure someone else isn't selling it for cheaper.


Searching for the specific item I want enables me to do this faster and more efficiently. Being able to see all the items in my desired rank range at one time enables me to do this faster and more efficiently.


Subjective. One player's "realness" is another player's inconvenience and frustration. There are much more of the latter than the former.




I didn't say it was the ONLY important thing. However, "saving time" is a concept that factors heavily into other concepts like "usability" and "convenience", which ultimately have a very large impact on the general area of "fun" and "enjoyment".

I also did list pros and cons in my post. I did not ignore them.



I did not say it is. This statement also applies to yourself, FYI.


Besides, this is not an "either-or" argument. Just because you would be able to buy stuff directly from the item search, doesn't mean that you can't also physically visit the retainers if you wanted to.

The main problem here, is you set your criteria to "is it convenient" then judge based on that criteria.

Convenience is not the sole aspect of making a game entertaining, different people are entertained by different things. You want selling and buying items to be a very small very simple part of the game, its in the way of what you want to do so you want it to be short. However, this is not the case for everyone. Some people want to set up and maintain shops, they want to run around instead of standing at counter, They want to search for deals, see what people are offering.

If you apply your argument to travel you have, anima versus chocobo/airship, many people want chocobos and airships over anima, some want it in addition to. But one major difference is anima is not unlimited, if it was no one would have to walk anywhere (dunno if i mind that but ehhh). So by making this super shop, you eliminate all other forms of economy, and unfortunately make it much easier to manipulate the economy.

[Rentahamster]

The main problem here, is you set your criteria to "is it convenient" then judge based on that criteria.

Well, call me crazy, but "is it convenient" is a pretty good measure of quality.

Convenience is not the sole aspect of making a game entertaining, different people are entertained by different things.

I'm not sure if that's what you really mean, but it sounds like you're implying that some people derive entertainment from inconvenience. For most people, inconvenience isn't fun.

This is why "convenience stores" like Seven-Eleven are so popular, and the guy who invented the "inconvenience store" is now bankrupt.

You want selling and buying items to be a very small very simple part of the game, its in the way of what you want to do so you want it to be short.

No, I didn't say I want economic activity to be "very small and very simple". I want buying and selling to be deep, complex, and heavily rewarding for those who choose to participate in it. What I did say, was that I want the act of buying and selling to be fast and convenient.

That way, I can spend more time doing the actual buying and selling, rather than spending a lot of my time walking, waiting, loading, and searching.

Some people want to set up and maintain shops, they want to run around instead of standing at counter, They want to search for deals, see what people are offering.

Sure some people want to run around, but not most people. You can search for deals from the item search menu.

So by making this super shop, you eliminate all other forms of economy, and unfortunately make it much easier to manipulate the economy.

We all aim to manipulate the economy when we participate in it. That's what we're supposed to do. If you're talking about exploiting the economy, that has more to do with the flaws in the game's fundamental mechanics rather than the buying/selling interface.

Having more information and functionality available to the player via such a "super shop" or whatever you want to call it is not a bad thing. This is one of the reasons why they are finally merging all the different towns' auction houses in FF11.

[Vackashken]

This is why "convenience stores" like Seven-Eleven are so popular, and the guy who invented the "inconvenience store" is now bankrupt.

Effin hilarious...

[Amsai]

Well, call me crazy, but "is it convenient" is a pretty good measure of quality.

I'm not sure if that's what you really mean, but it sounds like you're implying that some people derive entertainment from inconvenience. For most people, inconvenience isn't fun.

This is why "convenience stores" like Seven-Eleven are so popular, and the guy who invented the "inconvenience store" is now bankrupt.

Yea......... I'm gonna have to go with Renta on this. Plus, that last line was so funny yet so tragically true.