Let's keep Character Crossovers from other Square-Enix titles out of FFXIV.

[Sleverin]

The issue here is not, of course, whether or not we like Lightning but more of the point of how crossovers cause more problems than they solve and that in the end they demean properties that they come from and go to. This is speaking more directly to the Final Fantasy series in the fact that the reason we loved these characters in the first place is that their stories are singular representations of the work. They had a story that was told, we loved it and their role in it and a new story has come along in which we can again love new characters without forgetting the old.

To use Shakespeare as a point, we do not see him throw Hamlet into every play he can, despite the fact that it's noted that he is obviously Shakespeare's favorite character by looking at the lines he has and the amount of dialogue he uses. Why not? It wouldn't make sense for the Prince of Denmark to just suddenly appear in Macbeth say as the times are completely different and though everyone loves Hamlet he would seem so out of place in Scotland it would make the story irreverent.

@Aish I haven't read any of your posts or even knew that you had posted in this thread, I was merely bringing up this plot point that everyone seems quite bent on bringing up, that which is known as the "Void". To call it a different plane of existence (i.e. a Realm) is questionable, as we only know of creatures that come from a place so abhorrent we view their very existence as alien to our own. To use this possible device to explain why Lightning would be here would be rather questionable at best as it would make her a creature of the Void itself would it not? By being so she would in fact be an enemy to us, as the only things known to come from the Void are beasts and hideous demons.

This point of this "Mother Crystal" that is also brought up is another point I find highly suspect. Many bring this up, using the exact same words as you do yet I fail to see how any of this is relevant, or in fact even true. We honestly don't know what happened at Carteneau Flats, no one does. For all we know we were stationed in the flow of Aether that we travel across and were left between waking reality and this Crystal which could be a binder of our reality, not unlike the ones in XI. It's superfluous, however, as neither of these ideas are crossing dimensions, nor are they any sort of time travel. We were not thrown five years into the future, as if Doc Brown aka Louisoix came along and threw us in the DeLorean and told us to work it out when we got there. Stasis is our best explanation at this point for what happened to us through the intervention of Louisoix, or quite possible the Twelve. The only way we can perceive times other than our own is through the Echo, but this is merely for viewing and not any sort of travel.

As for gag characters, I must reiterate my point about "it's on the package". Hildibrand is a known joke character, he's there for levity and laughs. Writers often employ a character such as this to ease tension, relax the audience, and help set up other ideas for higher drama. Without using this device, the audience can become exhausted at your narrative, weakened by your ideas of high drama and without some levity the rhythm of your work will falter and the work itself will fail. I actually didn't do the Hildibrand quests, so I had no idea about this yet it does not mean much that Urianger was involved. Urianger's point (at least in that scene) was to be a fulcrum for the joke as his spouting of that A/A rhyming scheme across Eorzea inspired Hildibrand to think of himself as a hero which isn't far fetched seeing as Hildibrand thinks quite highly of himself. However, this scene doesn't have any sort of bothersome effects upon the story as Urianger is just there, he doesn't suddenly drop dead or sprout 6 Hydra heads. If Hildibrand were to slap Raubahn around while in the Coliseum, Suplex him like Sabin and then toss him out of the arena, then yes, this would be a major problem. His interactions with Urianger, however, are in fact pointedly justifiable for the reasons stated before. I don't see how this makes less sense than if Lightning were to suddenly appear through some dimension hopping idea.

[Aish]

To use this possible device to explain why Lightning would be here would be rather questionable at best as it would make her a creature of the Void itself would it not? By being so she would in fact be an enemy to us, as the only things known to come from the Void are beasts and hideous demons.

Again, you missed the point I was making. Namely 'Realm-hopping' is not some random power attributed to Lightning only for this. I was pointing out that Crossing realms already exists in-game, my prime example being the Void, this does not automatically mean that the Void will be used, it only establishes that it's possible to cross dimensions. And again, during the beta storyline, the crystal summons our incorporeal forms in to it's presence. Multiple times. And even other adventurers. With a greater push, it could conceivably summon physical bodies, since, well, we adventurers travel the aether highways all the time. There's none of this retconning going on. Neither in FFXIV, nor was there any involved in Lightning's ability (Time travel, edit: which, if I'm not mistaken, she has in the second game.) to come here.

However, this scene doesn't have any sort of bothersome effects upon the story as Urianger is just there, he doesn't suddenly drop dead or sprout 6 Hydra heads.

Again, Lightning will have no impact on the main story either. The only substantial difference between the two characters? Lightning has a fully fleshed out story. Period. Lightning is going to, legitimately, be here using a mechanism already in-place in both games.

I suppose you could make the case that Hildibrand has his own adventure, focused on him as well, but then the only true difference between the two is that Lightning was in a different game.

[Sleverin]

Again, you missed the point I was making. Namely 'Realm-hopping' is not some random power attributed to Lightning only for this. I was pointing out that Crossing realms already exists in-game, my prime example being the Void, this does not automatically mean that the Void will be used, it only establishes that it's possible to cross dimensions. And again, during the beta storyline, the crystal summons our incorporeal forms in to it's presence. Multiple times. And even other adventurers. With a greater push, it could conceivably summon physical bodies, since, well, we adventurers travel the aether highways all the time. There's none of this retconning going on. Neither in FFXIV, nor was there any involved in Lightning's ability (Time travel, edit: which, if I'm not mistaken, she has in the second game.) to come here.



Again, Lightning will have no impact on the main story either. The only substantial difference between the two characters? Lightning has a fully fleshed out story. Period. Lightning is going to, legitimately, be here using a mechanism already in-place in both games.

I suppose you could make the case that Hildibrand has his own adventure, focused on him as well, but then the only true difference between the two is that Lightning was in a different game.

I must reply that I did not, in fact, miss your point, I merely took it to its logical conclusion. The idea of the Void as an alternate reality is incorrect because of something that I've touched on in a way but not fully discussed. To use a Classical example, we can say that we live on Earth. We have the heavens above us, on which the deities reside and that below us, Hades and its realms. These are all apart of the same "world" and function within each others existence. The deities above and below can see the plane upon which we live and act in manners accordingly to what they witness.

The same must be said of ideas of where the Mother Crystal resides (it would seem that this is more of a collective unconscious, a sort of Jungian view) which would not quite be what we associate as heaven but as more a place for souls to gather and harmonize. This might be a bit more Platonic than what is actually happening, but I'm saying all this to make a point, not to assume things of our limited information. Following this path, we can easily see where my example is going, that this "Void" is an absence of the that which is good and right (i.e. basic structured order of what is around us and that which created it [at least we would think] which would be the Crystal[s]).

Following all this, we can see that these are all, in fact, part of the same idea of existence and are not of alternate worlds that do not interact or coincide with each other. Through this we can see that there is no travel between alternate dimensions, but merely through planes of existence, not as one walks through a door but more like one rides a plane to a foreign country. It's difficult and take great expenditure of energy to do so, but can be done, even if we don't understand it.

Here's where this Lightning crossover becomes a problem, not simply because it is this single event alone that does it, but it opens doors for future crossovers which would meddle with the game and it's story. Lightning is in no way a part of Eorzea, she is not from there nor has she ever participated in its creation or been part of its timeline. This is the important part here, especially in reference to the idea of retconning. As to where the Crystal resides is in no way an alternate reality nor is the Void, the implication that must be made is that for some reason, she can access Eorzea. Yet without her being an omniscient being, how would she know about this alternate reality? How could she, in fact, even access this place without someone telling her of it except through complete random chance? On top of that, how would Eorzea even support an idea like this with being retconned? It cannot be said that alternate realities exist or that they can even be accessed without shoehorning this in at a later date and using the story device they implemented specifically for this type of event. And by doing so they can open the door for further experimentation with this idea by using any sort of quasi-dimensional travel that any character in Final Fantasy has used to simply sidestep into our game world.

That is also how it is different from Hildibrand in the fact the Hildibrand is here, he's been in the game as a plausible character with no extra baggage or anything like that and he even interacts with main plot characters and doesn't affect the main plot. Lightning doesn't, yet her mere presence changes the rules of the game world with instant retconning by her simply walking into Eorzea.

QED.

[Aish]

QED.

Okay, you've convinced me that there could possibly be some retconning. However, your classical example may not even be applicable since:

Hades itself was described as being either at the outer bounds of the ocean or beneath the depths or ends of the earth. It was considered the dark counterpart to the brightness of Mount Olympus, and was the kingdom of the dead that corresponded to the kingdom of the gods

Source

The underlined portion suggests a physical location in our world. As far as I know, the Crystal and the Void have no physical connection to Eorzea, which, to me, lends less credibility to your same 'world' argument.

You also seem to be making a distinction between separate planes of existence and alternate dimensions. To me, they are one and the same.

Yet without her being an omniscient being, how would she know about this alternate reality?

Lightning stands before the goddess's throne and is briefly made one with [the goddess] Etro.

Source

Make of this what you will.

...he's been in the game as a plausible character with no extra baggage or anything like that and he even interacts with main plot characters and doesn't affect the main plot.

Again, Lightning will not affect the main plot, retconning aside.

I can accept slight retconning for a fun event without feeling the story has been harmed. While I'll agree that they shouldn't get too crazy with the amount of cross-overs, I feel that they're offering a decent compromise on the issue that's very close to the middle-ground of [Lightning vs. No Lightning].

[Keyln]

QED.

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Final Fantasy cosmology. Each game of the Final Fantasy series takes place not in an alternate universe, or in an extra-dimensional plane, but on its own planet in the same universe (or more likely, galaxy). Travel between these worlds is very difficult, but possible, and it has been done. This has been accomplished by travelling in an asteroid (V, IV: After Years), or travelling through the void (V, VIII, IX, XII). This is not to say that alternate timelines don't exist (IX: Wings of the Goddess, XIII-2), or that alternate worlds exist (IX, XI: Abyssea, Dissidia), but for the most part, the default is that each game in the Final Fantasy series takes place on a different planet with various themes (although it does bring up questions about how humans have managed to appear on these different worlds, or how chocobos appeared as well, although there is a bit more evolutionary diversity than in humans, but I digress...). Atomos also seems to have the power to transverse worlds (V, XI: Wings of the Goddess, XI: Abyssea, XIV), as it has the power to transverse dimensions and time. The Void also seems to be a bit of a mystery at this point, but it appears to be an extra-dimensional system through which one can travel. It's not unlike wormholes which connect to distant points in space.

Now, if travel between worlds is possible in the Final Fantasy galaxy (or universe, or whatever), what makes this statement true?

It cannot be said that alternate realities exist or that they can even be accessed without shoehorning this in at a later date and using the story device they implemented specifically for this type of event. And by doing so they can open the door for further experimentation with this idea by using any sort of quasi-dimensional travel that any character in Final Fantasy has used to simply sidestep into our game world.

Provided that the world of XIV already allows for the transport from one point to another via Aethernet system, who's to say that there can't be a force powerful enough to transport a being from one world to this one through this very same system?

There need not be any retconning or story changing here, as it's already provided in the Final Fantasy galaxy that it is possible to travel between worlds, provided one has the means and power to do so. All we know is that Lightning (and THE Lightning, not a clone of one) is in XIV, but we don't know how or why yet. That's something that has yet to be explained, but it is not impossible for her to be there, or for any previous Final Fantasy character to be in XIV.

QED.

[C-croft]

Although slightly jarring, crossovers are fine, provided they are executed with caution. With that said, I can think of plenty of scenarios in which Lightning can be a part of Eorzea without retcon issues. One example could be that in XIV's time, it is Eorzea. But in the far far distant future it is something else I entirely. We can see examples of this in our own world. Our time on Earth has been but a split second in comparison to the rest of the world's time.

The point is that regardless of what we think, the lore is not ours to decide. If they construct it terribly,that is one thing, however, we should wait to pass judgment until they have given us more to see.

On a side note, I also agree that this is a marketing ploy. Hopefully a fun, well executed one.

Double side note, when writing in a high level, you should be prepared to meet resistance with regards to your ideas and opinions. I am not telling you to dumb down your writing, just know that it is easy to cause confusion. Also note, that there may be readers who understand what your underlying writing is saying, and that the hypocrisy is easy to read.


PS has anyone in this thread played all of the games to ending to see the story on XIII's side? I feel that the point of this crossover may be to enjoy both stories and see where they connect. I personally felt that the crystalization of Cocoon looks very similar to the 'scars' of Eorzea's Bahamut's temper tantrum.

[REDace0]

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Final Fantasy cosmology. Each game of the Final Fantasy series takes place not in an alternate universe, or in an extra-dimensional plane, but on its own planet in the same universe (or more likely, galaxy). Travel between these worlds is very difficult, but possible, and it has been done. This has been accomplished by travelling in an asteroid (V, IV: After Years), or travelling through the void (V, VIII, IX, XII). This is not to say that alternate timelines don't exist (IX: Wings of the Goddess, XIII-2), or that alternate worlds exist (IX, XI: Abyssea, Dissidia), but for the most part, the default is that each game in the Final Fantasy series takes place on a different planet with various themes (although it does bring up questions about how humans have managed to appear on these different worlds, or how chocobos appeared as well, although there is a bit more evolutionary diversity than in humans, but I digress...). Atomos also seems to have the power to transverse worlds (V, XI: Wings of the Goddess, XI: Abyssea, XIV), as it has the power to transverse dimensions and time. The Void also seems to be a bit of a mystery at this point, but it appears to be an extra-dimensional system through which one can travel. It's not unlike wormholes which connect to distant points in space.

Ok, you have me intrigued. As far as I understand it, although some single FFs take place on multiple nearby worlds (V), and some even take place on the same world (Spira, Ivalice), nowhere do we have a specific reference that places two separate FFs on different worlds (or world-groupings) within the same physical plane. To clarify, what I would be looking for is a reference that says, for example, Hydaelyn and Spira are some number of light-years away from each other and you could travel from one to another if only you had a sufficiently effective mode of direct transport (i.e. not teleporting).

[Keyln]

Ok, you have me intrigued. As far as I understand it, although some single FFs take place on multiple nearby worlds (V), and some even take place on the same world (Spira, Ivalice), nowhere do we have a specific reference that places two separate FFs on different worlds (or world-groupings) within the same physical plane. To clarify, what I would be looking for is a reference that says, for example, Hydaelyn and Spira are some number of light-years away from each other and you could travel from one to another if only you had a sufficiently effective mode of direct transport (i.e. not teleporting).

There are two instances of inter-planetary travel. The first is in IV:After Years where the big villain of the game is shown to have been the last member of an ancient space faring civilization, and had been using crystals to gather information about life in the universe. From the creatures previously fought in the final dungeon, it is heavily implied that the villain has been to the worlds of I, II, III, V, and VI. Also, it was heavily implied that the descendants of the people in X and X-2 will eventually develop interplanetary travel and go to the world of VII to form the Shinra Power company. It was also confirmed in the Ultimania for X and X-2.

All of this implies that unless it's explicitly stated otherwise, all of the games in the Final Fantasy series take place in the same universe (and I dare say galaxy), but in different systems/planets. Thus, with sufficient resources, means, and power, it is possible for a civilization to travel from one world to another. Thus, it is quite possible to have Lightning appear in XIV, and any other character from the Final Fantasy series for that matter. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if they use the Aethernet system that is present in XIV to do that.

On an unrelated diversion, do I get nerd points for this? And what do I use them for?

[Rythwen]

There are two instances of inter-planetary travel. The first is in IV:After Years where the big villain of the game is shown to have been the last member of an ancient space faring civilization, and had been using crystals to gather information about life in the universe. From the creatures previously fought in the final dungeon, it is heavily implied that the villain has been to the worlds of I, II, III, V, and VI. Also, it was heavily implied that the descendants of the people in X and X-2 will eventually develop interplanetary travel and go to the world of VII to form the Shinra Power company. It was also confirmed in the Ultimania for X and X-2.

All of this implies that unless it's explicitly stated otherwise, all of the games in the Final Fantasy series take place in the same universe (and I dare say galaxy), but in different systems/planets. Thus, with sufficient resources, means, and power, it is possible for a civilization to travel from one world to another. Thus, it is quite possible to have Lightning appear in XIV, and any other character from the Final Fantasy series for that matter. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if they use the Aethernet system that is present in XIV to do that.

On an unrelated diversion, do I get nerd points for this? And what do I use them for?

Infinite nerd points. I hope more people read your post to see what's been possible in the Final Fantasy universe.