FFXIV Bahamut vs. WoW Deathwing - Who Wins?

[Preypacer]

It's weird how bent out of shape some people are getting over a completely hypothetical topic. It's rather sad how a few are taking such a condescending tone with others about it (well, it's par for the course with one person, so not surprising there; I'll let others guess who).

I'll add this...

Part of the issue people seem to be dealing with is each one's personal definition of "destroying the world". So, I won't even go there. I'll just speak to the overall amount of destruction each creates, and the fallout from it.

In Deathwing's case, he messed some places up, while entire other regions are left untouched. So his swath of destruction was very much limited to only certain parts of Azeroth. Further, cities are left standing in each case with only some damage done. All in all, the impression I had (even at Cata's launch, well before anything to do with XIV or Bahamut), was that he was a pissed off dragon going on a temper tantrum.

It's accurate to say that in the 2.5 years or so that he was freed, he failed to destroy the world. The worst of his destruction was inflicted when he first emerged.

On the other hand, Bahamut manages to change the face of pretty much all of Eorzea within minutes of emerging, changing entire climates in some cases from what we've seen. And I don't mean "making a long trench here, or a large crater there", I mean rendering the world pretty much unrecognizable to anyone who saw it during 1.0. Outside of the cities (which seemed to have been mostly spared, just like in WoW).

That said, we don't know how much impact his attacks had on the cities themselves. While none may have suffered a direct hit (which remains to be seen), that's not to say the fallout couldn't have been equally devastating - choking smoke and ash and debris, etc...

And then there's the matter of the folks in XIV having to be actually teleported away to safety, or face certain annihilation. We don't know if that was everyone on Eorzea, or just those immediately within and around the cities. That remains to be seen... and perhaps something in ARR will explain all that.

I would have to say, with what we've seen of ARR (screenshots, videos, etc) and what we can see of Azeroth, and considering the effects each attack had on its respective world's population... I'd have to give it to Bahamut.

It seems pointless to talk about what happens to Bahamut after his attack, or his imprisonment in the labyrinth, because we don't know how he ultimately ends up there, yet. There's a lot of guessing and theory-crafting, but no one actually knows at this point (well, outside of SE anyway).

[Rowyne]

It's weird how bent out of shape some people are getting over a completely hypothetical topic. It's rather sad how a few are taking such a condescending tone with others about it

I couldn't agree more. This image was created as a piece of humor, and people are picking it apart like a thesis.

We all know neither dragon completely destroyed either world. But, as Preypacer pointed out, I think most would have to agree that Bahamut came a whole lot closer than Deathwing ever did.

Deathwing One of the five dragon aspects and leader of the black dragonflight (though not leader over all dragons, as that falls to the dragon queen Alexstrasza the Life-Binder). Formerly Neltharion the Earth-Warder, charged with watching as the world of Azeroth changed and maintaining the boundaries and lines of delineation between the races so that none would fall to war over land. Madness and corruption from the Old Gods eventually twisted and changed him into Deathwing the Destroyer, the Aspect of Death. His explosive escape from Deepholm in an event called The Shattering creates earthquakes, chasms, tidal waves, and other natural disasters in certain areas of the world. He breathes fire across the land, and leaves his mark on parts of a few cities. But that is really the extent of his destruction of Azeroth.

Bahamut The king and superior of all dragons. It takes an ancient prison forged of both magic and machine to keep him at bay. This prison is Dalamud, which Eorzeans had believed to be the lesser moon, which is a testament to his massive size. Breaking free of the weakened structure and enraged after aeons of duress, Bahamut immediately starts to unleash his wrath upon the realm. Not only in the form of flame, but also of fiery shrapnel from pieces of the 'moon' that begin to plummet to the ground and destroy entire landscapes. The Circle of Knowing, with help from The Twelve Gods and Goddesses, attempt to reforge the prison but are unable. The spell is broken before it can be resealed. The only recourse is for Louisioux to teleport our brave adventures through time and space to safety, and does so just before Bahamut releases his most devastating attack, Mega-Flare. Bahamut's fury leaves entire areas unrecognizable (as evidenced in official ARR screenshots - nothing quite looks the same as it did in 1.0). Half the Twelveswood was laid to waste (the black shroud is definitely not so shroudy in the new screenshots). In fact, it's said that the land shouldn't be as lush and green as it is after only five years, but we'll get an explanation of that later.

Seriously, no reason to get bent out of shape from some internet humor.

[Kallera]

I couldn't agree more. This image was created as a piece of humor, and people are picking it apart like a thesis.

We all know neither dragon completely destroyed either world. But, as Preypacer pointed out, I think most would have to agree that Bahamut came a whole lot closer than Deathwing ever did.

Deathwing One of the five dragon aspects and leader of the black dragonflight (though not leader over all dragons, as that falls to the dragon queen Alexstrasza the Life-Binder). Formerly Neltharion the Earth-Warder, charged with watching as the world of Azeroth changed and maintaining the boundaries and lines of delineation between the races so that none would fall to war over land. Madness and corruption from the Old Gods eventually twisted and changed him into Deathwing the Destroyer, the Aspect of Death. His explosive escape from Deepholm in an event called The Shattering creates earthquakes, chasms, tidal waves, and other natural disasters in certain areas of the world. He breathes fire across the land, and leaves his mark on parts of a few cities. But that is really the extent of his destruction of Azeroth.

Bahamut The king and superior of all dragons. It takes an ancient prison forged of both magic and machine to keep him at bay. This prison is Dalamud, which Eorzeans had believed to be the lesser moon, which is a testament to his massive size. Breaking free of the weakened structure and enraged after aeons of duress, Bahamut immediately starts to unleash his wrath upon the realm. Not only in the form of flame, but also of fiery shrapnel from pieces of the 'moon' that begin to plummet to the ground and destroy entire landscapes. The Circle of Knowing, with help from The Twelve Gods and Goddesses, attempt to reforge the prison but are unable. The spell is broken before it can be resealed. The only recourse is for Louisioux to teleport our brave adventures through time and space to safety, and does so just before Bahamut releases his most devastating attack, Mega-Flare. Bahamut's fury leaves entire areas unrecognizable (as evidenced in official ARR screenshots - nothing quite looks the same as it did in 1.0). Half the Twelveswood was laid to waste (the black shroud is definitely not so shroudy in the new screenshots). In fact, it's said that the land shouldn't be as lush and green as it is after only five years, but we'll get an explanation of that later.

Seriously, no reason to get bent out of shape from some internet humor.

Well after the resolving of the Superman vs Goku argument, the internet needs SOMETHING to fill the message boards with..

[fusional]

In Deathwing's case, he messed some places up, while entire other regions are left untouched. ...Further, cities are left standing in each case with only some damage done.

just deathwing, eh? seems like selective bias.

It's accurate to say that in the 2.5 years or so that he was freed, he failed to destroy the world.

keep this in mind. we'll come back to it.

On the other hand, Bahamut manages to change the face of pretty much all of Eorzea within minutes of emerging, changing entire climates in some cases from what we've seen. And I don't mean "making a long trench here, or a large crater there", I mean rendering the world pretty much unrecognizable to anyone who saw it during 1.0. Outside of the cities (which seemed to have been mostly spared, just like in WoW).

this is exaggeration. first of all, we have to understand and accept that bahamut is being used as a convenient excuse for redesigning the game world, and he serves that function admirably. the dev team have even specifically commented that he mostly only messed up mor dhona and coerthas (though not *only* those areas- they just saw the worst of it). other places were completely untouched. all of thanalan, for example. other areas which were changed without being attacked were explained by the gravity from Dalamud's descent reshaping the land. while you could attribute this to bahamut, i don't think that's very fair considering it's entirely incidental.

and let's go back to your 2.5 years comment about deathwing, which is accurate enough. but look at the state of ARR- it appears just 5 years after the events ending 1.0. you're telling me he succeeded in destroying the world, and we rebuilt it all in just 5 years? i'm not buying it.

And then there's the matter of the folks in XIV having to be actually teleported away to safety, or face certain annihilation. We don't know if that was everyone on Eorzea, or just those immediately within and around the cities. That remains to be seen... and perhaps something in ARR will explain all that.

pretty sure devs commented on this, too- only players participating in the battles ending 1.0 were teleported away into the future. other people who were far away from the attacks, in lands which were untouched, were subsequently untouched themselves. not only is this evident through the simple fact that the chocobos all seem alive and well, but in ARR there will be a distinction between legacy and non-legacy players, where the legacy players will have slightly different dialogue and story than non-legacy, referencing the events ending 1.0. non-legacy players will get something a little different, and a little different flavor text from NPCs.

i think it's easy enough to assume that new non-legacy adventurers aren't 5 years old, so for them to exist at an adult age 5 years after Dalamud's descent, but be completely unaffected and uninvolved with that story arc- this seems to only underscore the implication that they were simply in different parts of the world at the time of those events, and were thus unaffected. unless they just appear out of the aether as fully functional adult beings? but that would ruin immersion, wouldn't it?

I would have to say, with what we've seen of ARR (screenshots, videos, etc) and what we can see of Azeroth, and considering the effects each attack had on its respective world's population... I'd have to give it to Bahamut.

and here we disagree on one point, in spite of agreeing on another. bahamut does seem to be the more powerful of the two, and many have covered perfectly valid points underlining why- but as has been pointed out several times now, bahamut also failed to destroy the world, and didn't even really destroy that much (again, unless you also credit Dalamud's descent with changing the landscape, but wouldn't that credit better belong to Darnus?). yes, some areas of azeroth were unaffected, but most of those were expansion areas far removed from deathwing's immediate reach. the entire vanilla azeroth was changed.

now, that said, it definitely took him a lot longer to accomplish that in relation to what bahamut did in a few seconds- so again, the scales seem to obviously tip in bahamut's favor here. so why go to so much trouble to disagree with certain points when i agree with the end assessment?

because the avenues people take in arriving to that assessment are often biased and inaccurate. and in the end, what's the point of a discussion board if people aren't free to disagree with particulars, whether they agree overall or not? because then it's just a bunch of people talking for the sake of talking, saying whatever they want without considering anything else, and that defeats the purpose of the discussion part of the forum, no?

[Preypacer]

just deathwing, eh? seems like selective bias.

Not at all, although given one of your arguments later I can see why you'd say that. But we'll get to that.

this is exaggeration. first of all, we have to understand and accept that bahamut is being used as a convenient excuse for redesigning the game world, and he serves that function admirably.

Were this a thread discussing a real company called Square Enix, with a real Producer/Director Naoki Yoshida's whom made a real decision to scrap the (then) existing version of FFXIV and rebuild it from the ground up, including the real directive of completely re-designing the game's zones/areas, then sure, we would have to "understand and accept that".

However, given that this is a hypothetical discussion about two imaginary dragons, from two imaginary worlds in two fantasy online games and the imaginary destruction wrought upon those imaginary worlds by those imaginary dragons, no... we don't have to "understand and accept that" at all, because it's irrelevant in the context of the subject.

the dev team have even specifically commented that he mostly only messed up mor dhona and coerthas (though not *only* those areas- they just saw the worst of it).

His megaflare only mostly messed up those areas. Everything else he did affected everything/everywhere else.

other places were completely untouched. all of thanalan, for example. other areas which were changed without being attacked were explained by the gravity from Dalamud's descent reshaping the land. while you could attribute this to bahamut, i don't think that's very fair considering it's entirely incidental.

So, the fiery shards of Dalamud that Bahamut launched across all the areas when he decided to turn his one-time prison into a gigantic grenade were "gravity"?

The swarms of fireballs he trailed in his wake that ultimately slammed into and destroyed many other areas as well... those were "gravity"?

If the "gravity" of Dalamud was the reason for the upheaval of all those areas, then that should have taken place long before Bahamut's attack. Yet, all that devastation only took place during his attack.

I think you've got your lore confused. Or you're just making stuff up.

and let's go back to your 2.5 years comment about deathwing, which is accurate enough. but look at the state of ARR- it appears just 5 years after the events ending 1.0. you're telling me he succeeded in destroying the world, and we rebuilt it all in just 5 years? i'm not buying it.

Remember that part in my post, near the very beginning, where I mention how I'm not even going to discuss the idea of "destroying the world", since everyone seems to have their own definition of what that is? You know, the part you deliberately omitted from your response, and clearly ignored as well?

Here, I'll quote it for you...

Part of the issue people seem to be dealing with is each one's personal definition of "destroying the world". So, I won't even go there. I'll just speak to the overall amount of destruction each creates, and the fallout from it.

That part. Yeah, see, that paragraph there puts my entire post into a very specific context; that context not being "Bahamut or Deathwing destroying their respective worlds".

I very specifically state that I'm going based on the amount of overall damage/destruction each one inflicts. You ignored that part as well, apparently.

When I type things in my posts, I do so for a reason. That reason is to convey an idea, to support that idea, or to otherwise put other things I say into a particular context. Since context matters, if you're going to take the time to respond to me, please at least have the courtesy of not selectively ignoring parts of it, okay? Appreciate it.

That said, they didn't "rebuild the world", they rebuilt their society and their lives, and their homes, out of the rubble of what Bahamut left in his wake. In watching videos and viewing screenshots, Aetheryte camps are clearly rebuilt and/or completely expanded on, resembling villages more than the small little campsites they used to. Significant changes and improvements have been made to the cities (though we've only seen Gridania so far, with small snippets of the others). All of this is built within and around the rubble left behind by Bahamut's attack.

So, yes, they have had to rebuild their world to a very large degree, much like people have to do in the wake of any major disaster.

pretty sure devs commented on this, too- only players participating in the battles ending 1.0 were teleported away into the future. other people who were far away from the attacks, in lands which were untouched, were subsequently untouched themselves. not only is this evident through the simple fact that the chocobos all seem alive and well, but in ARR there will be a distinction between legacy and non-legacy players, where the legacy players will have slightly different dialogue and story than non-legacy, referencing the events ending 1.0. non-legacy players will get something a little different, and a little different flavor text from NPCs.

Irrelevant. Even if all people weren't teleported to the future, there were still plenty others in or around the areas of attack. If they weren't hit directly by the attacks, they certainly were affected by collateral damage or other fallout. I don't think one could, or would, seriously argue that somehow all the damage happened only in the exact spot that each piece of Dalamud, or Bahamut's rain of fire touched the ground. But maybe I'm wrong and some people would try to argue that.

We don't know the answer to this. We don't know how many others were affected, killed, displaced, etc. It remains to be seen, like I said before.

i think it's easy enough to assume that new non-legacy adventurers aren't 5 years old, so for them to exist at an adult age 5 years after Dalamud's descent, but be completely unaffected and uninvolved with that story arc- this seems to only underscore the implication that they were simply in different parts of the world at the time of those events, and were thus unaffected.

Ridiculous argument.

When Hurricane Katrina slammed into Louisiana, overwhelmed a levy and flooded/destroyed New Orleans, not everyone living in or around the area was killed. They were still very much seriously affected by it. I lived through Hurricane Andrew and you are not going to tell me that thousands of people who survived through that were not seriously affected - for *years* afterward.

Even if they survived Bahamut's attack, the people would still have been greatly affected/displaced by the events. Hence, they spent 5 years rebuilding to get them to where things are when 1.0 players return.

but that would ruin immersion, wouldn't it?

It would, if that were actually what I was arguing, and not just some strawman you conjured up.

and here we disagree on one point, in spite of agreeing on another. bahamut does seem to be the more powerful of the two, and many have covered perfectly valid points underlining why- but as has been pointed out several times now, bahamut also failed to destroy the world

Again, you ignore a very key part of my post. Please go back and read it again.

and didn't even really destroy that much (again, unless you also credit Dalamud's descent with changing the landscape, but wouldn't that credit better belong to Darnus?).

Bahamut destroyed/affected everything. I realize you're trying to split hairs here and draw arbitrary differences between the events, but you're just grasping at straws. Van Darnus brought Dalamud down, but Bahamut wrought all the destruction that took place - in 3 different ways. You're probably scoffing right now, so I'll explain.

1. Dalamud was created as a prison. Not a weapon. Bahamut's actions - at 3:15 of the End of An Era video - is what turns it into hundreds/thousands of pieces of flaming shrapnel, which then launch down to the world below (in all directions) and begin the onslought. Bahamut does that. Dalamud does not just explode on its own. Prior to that, Dalamud had merely weakened enough for Bahamut to emerge in the first place and would have otherwise fallen to the ground.

2. From 3:33, all the way up to about 4:10 when he's distracted by Louisoux, Bahamut is soaring all over the place, passing over all the cities, and surely all the areas around and in-between. In his wake is a rain of fire which is raining down and causing further destruction, as shown in scenes like his fly-over of Limsa. He's causing that.

3. His megaflare which, as you state, certainly affected Mor Dhona and Coerthas, but likely had bleed-over into surrounding areas as well.

So, no... the damage wrought by Bahamut was not "incidental". It was quite deliberate and direct.

yes, some areas of azeroth were unaffected, but most of those were expansion areas far removed from deathwing's immediate reach. the entire vanilla azeroth was changed.

And here again you're grasping at straws, using real-life details to explain away lore-related events. Whether they were expansion areas or not has nothing to do with it. All the regions, except Outlands, are part of Azeroth. They are all part of that world. They were all subject to attack and destruction by Deathwing. He failed to ravage them all because he failed to ravage them all. Nevermind "destroying" the entire world, he failed to even scratch a large portion of it.

now, that said, it definitely took him a lot longer to accomplish that in relation to what bahamut did in a few seconds- so again, the scales seem to obviously tip in bahamut's favor here. so why go to so much trouble to disagree with certain points when i agree with the end assessment?

Because this is a discussion forum and we're having a discussion? Because this thread doesn't rely on your agreement or disagreement of the topic at hand? Because the thread can continue and people can continue to discuss and debate it whether you're involved in it or not? Because it wasn't created for your sole benefit?

Take your pick.

because the avenues people take in arriving to that assessment are often biased and inaccurate. and in the end, what's the point of a discussion board if people aren't free to disagree with particulars, whether they agree overall or not? because then it's just a bunch of people talking for the sake of talking, saying whatever they want without considering anything else, and that defeats the purpose of the discussion part of the forum, no?

What are you even going on about at this point? Seriously. It's like you wandered off into some completely different topic... Are you replying to someone else's post? You certainly aren't responding to anything I said in mine.

[SkyeWindbinder]

What are you even going on about at this point? Seriously. It's like you wandered off into some completely different topic... Are you replying to someone else's post? You certainly aren't responding to anything I said in mine.

At this point, fusional is simply trying to justify turning a fun conversation about two fictional dragons into some sort of debate. Just arguing for the sake of arguing. Strange thing is, they've already admitted to not even liking the existene of this thread. Why are they still here???

Well, whatever. lol In my opinion, Bahamut easily curbstomps Deathwing. But I wonder how he'd fare against Knights of the Round...?


Thoughts, anyone?

[Kallera]

At this point, fusional is simply trying to justify turning a fun conversation about two fictional dragons into some sort of debate. Just arguing for the sake of arguing. Strange thing is, they've already admitted to not even liking the existene of this thread. Why are they still here???

Well, whatever. lol In my opinion, Bahamut easily curbstomps Deathwing. But I wonder how he'd fare against Knights of the Round...?


Thoughts, anyone?

Brave Sir Robin might be able to, he nearly took on the Dragon of Angnor, and the Vicious Chicken of Bristol.

[Aish]

Brave Sir Robin might be able to, he nearly took on the Dragon of Angnor, and the Vicious Chicken of Bristol.

However, he was no match for the "Old man from scene 24".

[Ikkenoe]

Ridiculous argument.

When Hurricane Katrina slammed into Louisiana...

Why are you bringing up real life examples in real life context when, earlier in your rant, you went out of your way to underscore that this wasn't about real life, but simply two imaginary dragons?

It would, if that were actually what I was arguing, and not just some strawman you conjured up

Chill out.

I realize you're trying to split hairs here and draw arbitrary differences between the events, but you're just grasping at straws.

No, seriously. Chill out.

And here again you're grasping at straws, using real-life details to explain away lore-related events.

It's okay when you do it, though. P.S., Chill out.

Because this is a discussion forum and we're having a discussion? Because this thread doesn't rely on your agreement or disagreement of the topic at hand?

Discussion doesn't rely on your agreement or disagreement with his posts, either. A few of you seem to get this twisted.

Because the thread can continue and people can continue to discuss and debate it whether you're involved in it or not? Because it wasn't created for your sole benefit?

You speak of straw men, yet readily conjure them yourself. He clearly doesn't say anything about, nor attempt to imply, that the forum or the discussion has anything at all to do with him or his benefit. The point seems to be that there's no such thing as discussion and no real point of having a "discussion forum" if everyone is expected to agree.

What are you even going on about at this point? Seriously.

No, really. People are going to disagree with you sometimes. You should really chill out.