[Loremonger] 1.X Lominsan Story Arc

[Anonymoose]

Only so much can be conveyed through text sadly.

And we can solve this my friends. All we need is some new fonts.

“Great party, Arj. Best party ever." What a jerk!

“How do you know he wasn’t being sincere, Arj?”

Because he wrote it in Sarcastica! If he had enjoyed himself, he would have used Good Times Roman!

[Catapult]

Firstly, regarding Answers:

Uematsu didn't write the lyrics. They were handed to him before he began composing the song and also (I think) before Susan Calloway was selected as the vocalist. The English lyrics came from a person called Michael Koji Christopher-Fox, who heads up the localisation team (is that you, Ferne, or is it your boss?) after development in the lore team.

In light of this, it may be better to think of the song as being an exchange between two entities where the entity is defined by the language used rather than who is singing. Have a ponder on that and tell me what you think, perhaps in a different thread.

Back on topic...

Mjollnir, a question for you this time.
If Stahlmann/Rostnstahl is indeed the former captain Hyllfyr of the pirates of the Astalicia, how did he become disgraced in the eyes of his crew (not just the Admirality) and why is his presence still tolerated aboard the ship?
If your crew mutinies against you, you usually don't survive the ordeal and you definitely don't remain tolerated as a deckhand.
If he were just a disgraced commodore, then I would understand.

[Forgo]

you know between Moose and Catapult and Fern I've learned more about FFXIVs lore then went i played (though i'm one of the many people that loved watching cs's) thanks guys you rock!!

[Mjollnir]

Based on the way a starshower signals his arrival as a bad omen (though the scene looks kind of like he rode in on it), I'd say he, or another ascian who at least mentions him, will be turning up again. Probably with that army in hand, yeah?

As a break from me ranting about Hyllfyr, the starshower at the end of NTTSM is clearly Ascian in origin. I'm going to not take a big leap of logic here and state that means the first starshower in Shapeless Melodies is Ascian and down to Travanchet too. And here's an assumption, but Travanchet seems to be able to influence the Sea Serpent at the start of NTTSM when the fight's going badly. I got to thinking that the starshower at the beginning has very little to do with the Echo and more to do with Travanchet turning you into a sleeper agent for the Ascians, because as soon as you're in the presence of the horn it happens again, he drops by, and grabs it. It's like the first time, if he's there controlling the Sea Serpent, he plants the conditioning in your head and the second time, when you see the horn, it activates.

Also, the Sahagin. Really? Because their ships are empty aside from Travanchet. We don't even see them murdering the fishing village, just Travanchet. We don't even know for sure if there were any Sahagin present at the Seal Rock massacre. It's viable there were just Reaver ships remote-controlled by Travanchet.

Back to my Hyllfyr conspiracy...

It's quite possible that this "Moose" figure just has a lot of text files and a Windows search button to help him out.

<3 the "Moose". I'm sure you've already done this, but could you Ctrl+F them for "Hellfire"? An NPC pretty much tells you outright about Sthalmann/Rostnsthal (not that I noticed it until you pointed it out) and I wondered if someone somewhere said something about, y'know, Steel being forged in the Fires of the Seven Hells or something...

Point Mjollir - don't write 5 page posts after midnight!

It's just so compelling! And I do appreciate you taking the time to respond to my thoughts. It's been a real help! I *really* hope we get it locked down by, like, 12hrs time because I'm gonna be busy

Devil's Advocate - why would the Astalicia be out without their Captain? The nametag in '62 clearly says Sthalmann. I'm still not ready to buy that it's the Astalicia. I pointed out that they looked the same, but so might countless other pirate ships.

Because Sthalmann is the captain of the Astilicia, but as his alter-ego Hyllfyr. If the nametag said Hyllfyr, it wouldn't be obfuscated from us and no piracy conspiracy for me to get confounded over... Oh.

For all we know, ten years ago, Sthalmann was first mate of Pirate Captain Hob. I don't think we have much history on the guy, and he owes Baderon enough favors to have been a citizen for some time... and we still don't know why in one quest his ship has a common room identical to the Astalicia and then all of a sudden he's using a ferry from the FSH guild.

I thought that was coz it was 'undercover', like. Didn't warrant his whole crew and ship getting in trouble, or the effort it would take to sail her out such a short way. i think that's too much of a leap of faith to make about Hob, though it's not impossible.

I agree with the second part of that to such a degree that I now think it's even less likely that he truly tossed the tablet as opposed to keeping it hidden to himself. If he knew the cat read it, he knows it can be read - why risk tossing it before he's sure whether or not he can convince Y'shtola to spill the dirt?

I do think it more likely that he tossed it to Travanchet in exchange for calling off the Sea Serpent. It's disquieting that he's not pictured on-deck in that battle though.

The Sahagin only know where the Admiral would be due to the possession of his sailing charts, which were provided to them through Travanchet, who got them from Emerick, who was told to do so directly by Sthalmann. He orchestrated the whole thing - that's how he knows the deed's been done before anyone else.

Yeah, I was joshing ya

Why would the Admiral himself be on the Seal Rock Provisional Unit, wouldn't it be more likely that he was intercepted independently due to the same sailing charts?

I can see no reason that he wouldn't want to get in there and personally grab the treasure that Sthalmann's told him about. Also though, even if he wasn't, the rest of the fleet sailed for Seal Rock once the Provisional Unit had been attacked and the 5th Levy had been engaged. I figured he'd be with the rest of the fleet on the Flagship (the ship that Sthalmann's just had built?)

Neither of us can claim either is conclusive at this time. Sthalmann could have just been avoiding flat out saying that the Astalicia was Hyllfyr's due to the political implications. He plays his hand close to the vest.

Yeah, I'm going by what *was* said and you're going by what *wasn't* said. I was hoping it would be easier to conclusively disprove my theory so I could move on with my life. This is all because of your damned questions, Moose!

The ship Sthalmann requested sank because it was hastily built. He rushed it and didn't pay properly and it sank. To me this implies a time crunch.

Oh that ship... That ship that was built on Sthalmann's orders and the '62 Admiralty's gold (which then became Rostnsthal's debt?), to be paid on credit (presumably after Sthalmann activated the horn and became Admiral). I wonder if it was the Flagship and whether it is customary for the Commodore to sail with the Admiral? Anyway, I think it sank because they lost the battle, not because of poor construction. I think it went down with the Admiral on ("to the depths") because a captain goes down with his ship (whether or not he's just been assassinated by an Elvaan).

Riddle me this though: It has sails and oars to get around. What the hell is the engine that the engineer from Garlond Ironworks can't get working in time? Theory: a treasure originally brought back from Seal Rock, though that might mean The Misery has grabbed one too though there has been no evidence for it. Unless I missed the whole memo about ships coming with engines as standard.

There's a war goin' on 'twixt rival factions: Rhoswen and 'er Sanguine Sirens against Carvallain and 'is Kraken's Arms...with each an' every one of 'em lookin' to dispose of Limsa's new Admiral an' take the spot for 'emselves. Problem is, they're too busy rippin' out each other's gizzards to get 'round to doin' the chief 'imself.

Thankee Sir Moose. I've got my head turned about now because, whilst looking at the source here, I notice that Y'shtola infers that the captain of the ship in the Shapeless Melody opening is... her!

And why would your patrons deem the presence of this particular denizen of the deep...inauspicious? Might it have something to do with the fact that it appeared on my ship at precisely the same time as we were assaulted by a colossal serpent?

So if Y'shtola had bought and crewed her own (nameless) ship and Sthalmann was her first mate because she needed him to guide her to Seal Rock (because Baderon had just told her only 'Cudas and scholars could get close), but he had to do it off-duty... Well, that changes everything!

However, I do want an apology from S-E regarding the dubious one-eyed-ness of the pirate captain Hyllfyr.

As much as I hate to be like, FERN! FERN! ATTENTION! FERN? FERN! FEEEERN! I think he might be needed someday for some of these vague introduction storylines, at the very least to drop some confirmation clues, considering negating clues will just make us jump to new excuses! lol I thought some spaghetti-unraveling would lead to some answers, but all we've managed to do is identify the location of the knots.

I swear, the whole time, I've just been angling for another one of these:

You, sir, win a cookie.

Mjollnir, a question for you this time.
If Stahlmann/Rostnstahl is indeed the former captain Hyllfyr of the pirates of the Astalicia, how did he become disgraced in the eyes of his crew (not just the Admirality) and why is his presence still tolerated aboard the ship?
If your crew mutinies against you, you usually don't survive the ordeal and you definitely don't remain tolerated as a deckhand.
If he were just a disgraced commodore, then I would understand.

So by the end of Never the Twain Shall Meet, Sthalmann has abandoned his identity as Hyllfyr and is widely recognised as Commodore. This would have been fine if his plan had come to fruition. To maintain a degree of influence over the Astilicia crew, when they are released from gaol he installs another, loyal two-eyed crew member (Hyllfyr '72) as captain (in order that his Sthalmann cover is maintained).

After Travanchet steals the horn, his dreams come crashing down. He has no interest in becoming Admiral without the power to back himself up. He realizes that he has caused the death of the Admiral for no reason and that he has hurt more than helped the Limsa he loves. Perhaps Y'shtola goes on to expose his plots to the rest of the population.

However, he *can* seek solace on the Astalicia precisely for the reason that the new Hyllfyr still owes him loyalty, or perhaps at that point merely a small amount of compassion. Rostnsthal (by now) has no use for taking the mantle of Hyllfyr back, as it wouldn't gain him any respect amongst the Bloody Executioners. By the same token, he could expose the new Hyllfyr as an impostor to outsiders. It's a happy medium for Roststhal to be left alone, drunk in the Astalicia. There are very few Astalicia crew out and about on board and the only people who openly have contact with him are the other pirate crews who constantly use the lounge.

Some stuff I found interesting was in the Maruader questline. Rostnsthal gets access to places and things seemingly out of reach, but realistically how can he pull that stuff off? It would make sense if he actually did have the full run of the Astalicia still. Also, it's convenient how you don't get killed on Hyllfyr's orders, just beaten unconscious and left in front of a barrel that Rostnsthal's emerges from. Rostnsthal doesn't want you dead, he wants to be your friend, very possibly because he's aware of your Echo powers and he has come up with a new big plan. I wouldn't put it past him to have a good memory and pretned he's so drunk he doesn't recognise you. Having said that, the first thing he does when meeting you is hit you as hard as he can...

Circumstantial evidence yes, but it fits nicely with my perspective.

[Orophin]

And why would your patrons deem the presence of this particular denizen of the deep...inauspicious? Might it have something to do with the fact that it appeared on my ship at precisely the same time as we were assaulted by a colossal serpent?

I think you might be looking into this one a little much. She was probably just referring to the ship she was on at the time moreso than a ship she actually commissioned.

Some stuff I found interesting was in the Maruader questline. Rostnsthal gets access to places and things seemingly out of reach, but realistically how can he pull that stuff off?

I would think during his tenure as Commodore of the Barracudas that he gained access to quite a bit of knowledge and that's probably how he knows how to get around and find what he wants.

[Anonymoose]

the starshower at the end of NTTSM is clearly Ascian in origin

At the very least, in the Lominsan storyline, I'm right with you on this one, but I'm still not quite sure if it's correlation or causation. I'll need to have brought all three story arcs to Fade to White before I'm willing to say one or the other.

but Travanchet seems to be able to influence the Sea Serpent at the start of NTTSM when the fight's going badly.

I thought this might be the case at one time, as well, but after watching the scene far too many times, I think what drew the serpent's attention was the battle itself, particularly the specific shot where the 'Cuda's fire a clusterbomb that rains down vertically from the sky directly onto the Sahagin ships and into the sea.

This was back when I thought the sea serpent was Leviathan, mind you. Leviathan belongs with the Sahagin, but the sea serpent belongs with The Twelve.

As far as I can tell, it just wants the treasure back on its island and is following whatever trail it can pick up on it - particularly Emerick. I realize that this doesn't quite explain Shapeless Melody, but in that instance, the serpent doesn't care about and barely even notices the boat. It's powering in a specific direction, creating a stampeded of fleeing aurelia. The boat gets caught in the swarm of wavekin running from it and then once it arrives, it just leaps over them and gets the hell out of there.

Why didn't it just swim under them? Makes for a bad cutscene, I guess.

I got to thinking that the starshower at the beginning has very little to do with the Echo and more to do with Travanchet turning you into a sleeper agent for the Ascians, because as soon as you're in the presence of the horn it happens again, he drops by, and grabs it. It's like the first time, if he's there controlling the Sea Serpent, he plants the conditioning in your head and the second time, when you see the horn, it activates.

That's a new way to look at it. I thought it was the fact that someone touched by the Echo was within presence of the horn. Right after it activates, boom, Echo. I'll have to mull over this a bit.

Also, the Sahagin. Really? Because their ships are empty aside from Travanchet.

At this time, the Sahagin had no character models to be displayed - but the ships are flying what I believe to be the Sahagin beast tribe symbol. It's designed exactly like the symbols of the Amal'jaa, Ixal, and Kobold, seen on their currency and Hamlet Seals.

could you Ctrl+F them for "Hellfire"?

The word comes up three times. Twice referring to the Hellfire Phoenix in the Gladiator story arc, and once as an Ifrit attack, lol. I also did a scan for "forge" and "hell," but the only thing forged there so far is the armor in the Warrior quest.

This is all because of your damned questions, Moose!

BUT IF ALIENS DON'T EXIST, HOW DID THEY BUILD THE PYRAMIDS?

(Rephrase: I'll just keep asking random questions about the things I don't know until either I accidentally look at it from the right angle, or I disprove so many ideas that I to start seeing the negative outline of the truth.)

I wonder if it was the Flagship and whether it is customary for the Commodore to sail with the Admiral? Anyway, I think it sank because they lost the battle, not because of poor construction. I think it went down with the Admiral on ("to the depths") because a captain goes down with his ship (whether or not he's just been assassinated by an Elvaan).

The fact that he'd have gone down on one of these ships is an interesting thought. Though, doesn't H'naanza say that it was overcome in the tides by Seal Rock?

Riddle me this though: It has sails and oars to get around.

I think the engine power the oars, actually, lol. I don't remember if there are little propellers underwater - there's a huge amount of those boats that are beneath the surface

[Catapult]

The starshower at the end of NTTSM is clearly Ascian in origin.

I believe this is a red herring. It would imply the Gridanian and Ul'dahn Starshowers are also related to ascians, but we have zero evidence this is the case. In fact, we haven't even found an ascian in those story arcs to begin with. The closest we have is a "shadow" attacking Farrimond's unit of Wood Wailers.

Having said that, the first thing he does when meeting you is hit you as hard as he can...
Circumstantial evidence yes, but it fits nicely with my perspective.

Of course he hits you! You were there when everything fell to pieces on him out at the God's Grip. This doesn't need to have anything to do with the Astalicia.

[Orophin]

I believe this is a red herring. It would imply the Gridanian and Ul'dahn Starshowers are also related to ascians, but we have zero evidence this is the case. In fact, we haven't even found an ascian in those story arcs to begin with. The closest we have is a "shadow" attacking Farrimond's unit of Wood Wailers.

I remember a quote from Ferne a while back asking us to check the cutscenes to look for other shadowless people, but to the best of my knowledge nobody was able to find anyone else other than Travanchet.

[Arivess]

This is only slightly related but...

In the story, in the echo, we/player gets assigned to a Levy, right? I could have sworn it was the 5th, but they said it wasn't the one going to Seal Rock, so I suppose not. But more importantly, I don't remember exactly which NPC it was or the exact quote, but an interesting fact is one of the Cudas (miqo'te, name starts with... ...B? Maybe? Or R? She's in the present, hanging out in I think the basement of Coral Tower) says that her sister is in the whichever-number-yours-isth Levy, which is the most prestigious, sought-after one. So I feel like the Limsa story will continue with you actually going somewhere in the Echo? Hopefully. Or at least that's what I thought before they explained how the Echo worked, so maybe not.

Also, about Hydaelyn commanding the sea serpent - wondering if Hydaelyn is the "Paragon" Ifrit mentions. The other path companions I've seen don't seem to mention a gender, but the lalafell female refers to the Paragon as "she".

Y'shtola aging well - it's possible? If you look at Ul'dah -- Nielle's YOUNGER brother is now an old man, and F'lhaminn still looks, what, 15?

[Anonymoose]

In the story, in the echo, we/player gets assigned to a Levy, right? I could have sworn it was the 5th, but they said it wasn't the one going to Seal Rock, so I suppose not.

I'd be happy to explore this one with you, because no, you're not crazy. You're just the only other person I've ever met who noticed.

Some background - In Treasures of the Main, Baderon sends you to Coral Tower to sign up for the 'Cudas. Half of this is spent in real-time, and half is spent in Echoes.

In 1572, Baderon writes you a recommendation and you go to the tower. Inside, you're told to show your stuff on the firing range. They make fun of you for not having a weapon, but Commodore Reyner lends you one. Unfortunately, your only experience with a firearm is watching Sthalmann fire his in Shapeless Melody's echo, so you strike his firing pose. Reyner recognizes the stance of his disgraced former superior anywhere...

This memory of Sthalmann triggers an Echo of 1562's Seal Rock Unit tryouts. Back then, standards were much higher due to all the pirates trying to sneak in. Mannskoen realizes you don't belong immediately, takes the loaned weapon from you, and says that failures like you belong in the 5th Levy. In the background Sthalmann is purposely recruiting the pirate Merodaulyn into the Seal Rock Unit as part of his plan to steal the Treasure. The echo ends, and the firearm is gone.

We arrive back at Reyner, figuring Rostnsthal (Sthalmann) is your mentor, kicking you the hell out of his tower. You go upstairs to the admissions desk. Now, if you hadn't have had an echo, you'd know to just leave, but because of Mannskoen, you tell Isaudorel that you were told to join the 5th. This confuses Isaudorel, because this unit doesn't exist anymore. His recalling the fate of this unit then triggers an echo.

In 1562, Mannskoen tells everyone the Seal Rock Unit is full and tells the failures to apply for the 5th instead. In the background, Emerick, already in on Sthalmann's plan, is recalled to The Misery.

Back to 1572, Isaudorel thinks you swiped that firearm. You try to tell him the sergeant (Mannskoen) took it, but he thinks you're talking about a different sergeant because Mannskoen's presumably been dead for 10 years (more on that in a second). You're told not to leave town until they get this flintlock thing straightened out and you leave without a job.

Now that you're all caught up, check this out:

August 2010 - Instanced, iirc

You heard of my sister? Private B'namanbi Ena, Thalassocratic Navy 3rd Squadron, 5th Levy Infantry, Seal Rock Provisional Unit. Ever since the rumors of floating islands and legendary treasure started swirling, her unit's been the most talked about in town. What I wouldn't give to be out there with her!

November 2012 - Not Instanced, iirc

You heard of my sister? Private B'nmanbi Ena, Thalassocratic Navy First Squadron, Fifth Levy Infantry, Seal Rock Provisional Unit. There once was a time her unit was the most talked about in town. What I wouldn't have given to be out there with her! Floating islands, hidden treasure, giant sea serpents... What more could a marine ask for!?

Treasures of the Main

Alright, greenbacks, the festivities have come to a close! The Seal Rock Unit has been filled, and none of you are in it! But before you go crying back to your mammies, we always have room for failures like you in the 5th. Who knows, maybe we can even make men out of you...if you last long enough! Ahahahaha! Dismissed!

But, Moose, I can hear some of you about to say, The Seal Rock Unit and The Seal Rock Provisional Unit are probably just different units using the same levy number in different squadrons! People are chosen for the first, and the wash-outs can feel free to back them up in other!

Well, first off, squadrons are based on the waters they patrol, so that would be silly, but fine, maybe they were stationed in different waters and just had similar tasks... secondly:

HIT IT, JOURNAL TEXT.

You may not have earned a position with the Seal Rock Provisional Unit, but do not let that deter you from your goal of becoming a Barracuda.

Mannskoen told you to feel free to go for the 5th because you washed out of the Seal Rock Unit. Journal text here implies that they're the same unit. Then...

The Sahagin have ambushed the provisional squadron en route to Seal Rock! 5th Levy currently engaging the enemy; heavy losses reported; squadron commander amongst casualties; acting commander does not think this attack random and believes someone from within the ranks discovered our plans to the enemy!

Does this not imply that the provisional unit is the 5th? And that the commander is Mannskoen?


After all, in Legends Adrift, the Arcanist Guild has a hard time believing that Mannskoen was the one who took your weapon... again, probably because he's dead.

You claim the weapon was confiscated from you by Sergeant Mannskoen? Are you certain of this? But he was assigned to the Seal Rock Unit...

I might be overlooking something, but this looks like one hell of a contradiction, you're right. Unless I'm missing something silly, without SE Catapult getting involved, that one might not ever be cleared up. I don't even think about it anymore.

Also, about Hydaelyn commanding the sea serpent - wondering if Hydaelyn is the "Paragon" Ifrit mentions.

I'm not sure what, if anything other than the drive to protect Seal Rock's contents, drives the sea serpent.

However, I don't think the Paragon is Hydaelyn. Remember, Hydaelyn is the consciousness of the planet - and every time a primal is summoned, it kills her a little bit due to the consumption of her life force. If she's the Paragon, she's committing suicide. So far, my money is on the Paragons either being Ascian, Garlean, or Archon - to weaken this realm, conquer this realm, or manipulate the events of this realm so that a certain outcome may be achieved, respectively.

Part of me wants to say Urianger because when he first appeared everyone said he was to blame for the Sixth Umbral Era over a THOUSAND YEARS AGO (which is partly why I accuse Y'shtola of being a time traveler).

The other path companions I've seen don't seem to mention a gender, but the lalafell female refers to the Paragon as "she".

Between all the path companions we get accusations of it being male and female, and most are gender-neutral. Fernehalwes addressed this by saying that Japanese pronouns are ambiguous to begin with, but if you have to come away with it with an answer, the truth is that there are multiple paragons, so some probably are male and some probably are female.

This again links back to the possibility that the Archons and the Paragons are the exact same people. The mythology about them is exactly the same, word for word, except the Archons lead us to the light of the Twelve, and the Paragons lead the beast tribes to the light of the primals.

I still posit that it's entirely possible that the Archons are after a greater good, here. For all we know, they're perfectly fine with teaching the beast tribes to kill the planet if they already know, perhaps through time travel, that certain outcomes can be achieved in the long run. Remember that time the planet was almost out of aether to begin with and Louisoux tried to summon twelve gods at once? These people are all about the big picture.

I know this might sound like another conspiracy theory, but you never know. Stranger things have happened. That said, the only conspiracy theory I'm actively propagating is my Alexander theory... but that's better left for another day.

Y'shtola aging well - it's possible? If you look at Ul'dah -- Nielle's YOUNGER brother is now an old man, and F'lhaminn still looks, what, 15?

Go on, stare if you will. Make japes if you must. But I been doing this for eighty-odd years, and I know what a miner needs─booze! Not those bloody grape wines, neither─I'm talking spirits!

You know Mamaza looks like?

The only reason I don't bring this up is because it makes any speculation about Urianger being over 1700 years old moot. For all I know, Eorzeans have no expiration date if they know the right mage doctor and can avoid being stabbed in the face.