Quick Poll on Microphones

[Almalexia]

i never committed that fallacy. i never said people weren't true/real/raiders if they didn't use voice chat. i said, in the context of modern mmos, if you don't use voice chat it's impossible to be *serious* about raiding. if you want to split hairs over my definition of 'serious', that's perfectly valid and we can do that. but don't misrepresent my position.

It is implied. I consider myself "serious" about raiding, and you assert that it is impossible to be "serious" about raiding without voice chat. Therefore, if I identify as a serious raider, you would hold me to (and already have held me to) an unclear objective rule about being a serious raider; that is, not a truly serious raider, which you claim to be.

But I'll come back to "serious."

how was it contradictory? do you really think our groups are the same, sharing the same experiences? you don't think there's a difference between coordinating a group aiming for world first kills and a group coming along and doing the content weeks or months later, after the strategies have already been totally ironed out, and videos have been posted everywhere for reference?

Let me address this by first introducing a quote from earlier. Bear with me:

the very embodiment of what i've said dominates this forum- the player who doesn't care about the game's ACTUAL success, but rather only only 'success' in the context of their own personal preferences.

I prefer MNK over DRG.
I prefer text over chat.
I prefer coffee over tea.

If I head into Rivenroad as MNK and walk out with a pair of White Ravens and a hot cup of coffee, the event was an actual success. So was every relic, every DL and so on. The game gave me a set of objectives and I completed those objectives how I saw fit. My team carried out a play and scored a touchdown, if you don't mind me using your football analogy.

But the game, the ultimate objective standard, doesn't care about preferences. The game only cares about its objectives and its rules. Whether you, I and our respective teams complete the objectives within the confines of the game's rule set is the only thing that objectively matters. There would be no game without this.

The disconnect comes from BG's elitism--and yes, that's the first time the e-word has ever been used correctly on this board. You all are not satisfied with completing the game's objectives as written and instead invent your own. You push to the limit. You challenge yourselves more than is expected of you. I admire that. However, no matter how you choose to contextualize it, that's your preference. That's your brand of serious. You could erect a goal post on a crumbling glacier and kick a 43 yard field goal, but--impressive as it may be--it will still be worth the same number of points as on a standard football field. The game has its rules.

So when you say I'm not as "serious" for completing the same challenge under the same conditions, with the same available tools, the same number of people, the same knowledge of game mechanics and the same software with all its limitations, I can't help but wonder what you mean. But now I see.

My standard for success is in line with the game's proposed standard. Yours is the BG Standard: not merely exceptional, but elite. And that's just fine! The problem (yea, the bad elitism) is when you conflate the game's standard with the BG Standard and impose your arbitrary expectation on everyone else, calling them less-than-serious if they can't meet it.

implying our experiences are the same based simply on the fact that we both beat it does disservice to the entire basis for comparison, as the comparison needs to be made on an equal basis *or* context must be provided to allow for an inequality (ie: the fact that we do it without any videos or guides, and try to do it as fast as possible after patch goes live. very few other LSs experience this and as a result they largely experience content differently than we do. this is especially noteworthy in the context of voice chat and other elements which improve performance)

I can't deny you'll have a fundamentally different experience with content as a trailblazer than as someone who follows later. In that regard, no, I don't believe our groups were the same or that we had the same exact experience. I believe we participated under the same conditions issued by the same game. More importantly, we were serious about it--something you claim is impossible without voice chat. This contradicts my experience. I recall being serious about Darnus, and now some guy on the internet is telling me I'm wrong in that.

Turns out this "serious" of yours is pretty subjective. If you were serious about killing Darnus in 8 minutes, you could do so. If you were serious about getting a pair of White Ravens before the end of the world, you could also do that. You could use voice chat or you could use text, or smoke signals, or a mixture of these. You could do whatever you prefer and they would all be serious efforts. You can appropriate seriousness however you like. The only question from an objective position is whether you can defeat Darnus in the game's prescribed time of 30 minutes.

In the end, an "actual success" fulfills whatever conditions the game asks of you. Preference is laid on top of that, whether you go DRG instead of MNK, win in 8 minutes instead of 29, or chat in voice instead of text. The game only dares you to win.

Shit. This has gone way beyond voice chat, hasn't it?

[Zehira]

Aww... That dog does look like my dog... She doesn't like to play that much anymore and I guess she's old now... <3 Golden Retriever, thanks so I am not lonely.

Almalexia isn't a troll. they want to have an honest, serious and constructive discussion.

and maybe you'd have a different perspective on trolling if you spent less time in the forums and more time actually playing the games you post in the forums about?

Ohh... I came home from dentist and cleaned the dishes then read this forum. I know my trolling isn't same as what others can do here. It's like how SE trolled me once and I trolled them back twice with my silly signature because obviously I am special and SE knew that so they made some special features for me. But whatever, the point is... I know Almalexis isn't a troll, you are just overreacting.

fusional: If you don't want voice chat then you should go play other MMOs, ARR isn't for you.

Zehira: If you don't want text chat then you should go play other MMOs, ARR isn't for you.

I know my argument is invalid because I am different. Everyone's different and you know I am H... *got slapped by mods* ...I know I know I won't say it again. lol

On a serious note... I mean come on, I need you to talk to me with your fingers and not your lips because I don't speak English... Now, not sure if serious or just trolling. lol

Since Valve is supporting deaf gamers, if you have played Portal 2 online then you would know that you do not need a keyboard or headset to play at all.

All I can say is... NO to In-game Voice Chat, third party programs are fine. period.

[Jynx]

Eh personally I prefer to talk via text, but I will begrudgingly turn my Mic on when I feel it's actually productive.

[Technyze]

Is it because Taco Bell meat looks like the dirt in the can? Yeaah, thats why I do't eat there!

Guess you don't eat sausages or hot dogs either?

[fusional]

It is implied.

that can be argued to death in itself

I consider myself "serious" about raiding, and you assert that it is impossible to be "serious" about raiding without voice chat. Therefore, if I identify as a serious raider, you would hold me to (and already have held me to) an unclear objective rule about being a serious raider; that is, not a truly serious raider, which you claim to be.

here it gets even more murky. i never actually made that claim- however *now* you could argue that it's implied and be mostly correct. (but then we also have to qualify under which context/s i am or have been a 'serious raider' since i used "modern MMOs" as my reference rather than FFXIV specifically)

in this case, you're equivocating "true" and "serious"- but they're not the same. "true" is an X/O qualifier. something is true or it isn't. the fallacy comes in saying a person who is a scotsman isn't a scotsman when they in fact are, no matter how you attempt to qualify it.

however, a true scotsman doesn't necessarily have to be a serious scotsman. see the difference? i can be american without taking it seriously. the seriousness with which i take something has nothing to do with what i am (or what i'm not).

trying to split hairs over how "true" someone is or isn't in relation to something isn't the same as splitting hairs over how *serious* they are about it. and that said- i would've been fine in questioning *how* serious a person could be about ________ in relation to ______, but i've admitted it was wrong to say it is "impossible to be serious" without allowing for any gradient in between.

My team carried out a play and scored a touchdown, if you don't mind me using your football analogy.

which is fine, but some people aren't happy with just a touchdown. they want to score first, and they want to win in the end. while the game rules don't care about preferences, it does allow for a winner and a loser- and in relation to that, people will always keep statistics on who scores first most often, who racks up the highest scores, who wins the most games, etc.

that said- there are different forms of winning. finishing content at all is the most basic form of winning. however, finishing it first and/or fastest (etc.) is also a form of winning, as evidenced by the development team making reference of it via twitter and the forums on numerous occasions. (doing the most DPS is also a commonly pursued form of winning)

But the game, the ultimate objective standard, doesn't care about preferences.

the game doesn't, but the devs seem to. not only have they posted about it, but they've spoken of possibly adding achievements for it in 2.0 and almost definitely having timed leader boards. this goes beyond the scope of simple "win or don't win"

The disconnect comes from BG's elitism--and yes, that's the first time the e-word has ever been used correctly on this board.

i would say it's the second time, but your point stands

You all are not satisfied with completing the game's objectives as written and instead invent your own. You push to the limit. You challenge yourselves more than is expected of you. I admire that. However, no matter how you choose to contextualize it, that's your preference.

My standard for success is in line with the game's proposed standard. Yours is the BG Standard: not merely exceptional, but elite. And that's just fine! The problem (yea, the bad elitism) is when you conflate the game's standard with the BG Standard and impose your arbitrary expectation on everyone else, calling them less-than-serious if they can't meet it.

what about in situations where game objectives show up after we've set them for ourselves? ie: we ran 17 minute AVs before it was a necessary requirement for relic. you could certainly argue it was simply our preference at first (shared with numerous JP LSs and a couple other NA LSs at the time), but what happens when devs learn about this then add new challenges based upon this?

More importantly, we were serious about it--something you claim is impossible without voice chat. This contradicts my experience. I recall being serious about Darnus, and now some guy on the internet is telling me I'm wrong in that.

but again- i never specifically referenced FFXIV, so i didn't actually tell you anything of the sort. while, granted, saying "modern MMOs" is a generality that leaves room for quite a lot of ambiguity, if i were pressed to qualify my statement i could very easily use endgame from several other well-known MMOs where difficult endgame content *is in actuality* all but nearly impossible without voice chat coordination (and sometimes even certain information-gathering add ons)

however, in spite of very frequently using ifrit extreme and darnus hard as examples of actually challenging content in XIV, i was careful not to use XIV or either of those as an example in reference to 'serious raiding'/voice chat. that was intentional.

Turns out this "serious" of yours is pretty subjective.

as i've acknowledged. but the more raiding communities you talk to outside of XIV, the more you start to see how common that same idea of "serious" is among them. this is an important distinction, and again, a major reason why i referenced modern MMOs in general

If you were serious about killing Darnus in 8 minutes, you could do so.

while i get your point, it's actually not as simple as wanting to do it in ~8 minutes (or less) or not. once you get under the 10 minute mark, no matter how insane your DPS is there are luck factors in the fight which can prevent you from scoring a faster time no matter how perfect your performance is. going purely by numbers, we could have done it in 7:00-7:30, but that would assume *zero* teleports on top of perfect performances from each of 5 dragoons. 100% perfect luck, zero errors.

and even when the performance aspect was nearly as perfect as it was going to get, luck destroys your chance of a good time when he teleports around like a goon for 3 minutes, or when we dps so fast (with just 4 dragoons, mind you) we actually break the mechanics of the fight and he hangs around an extra few minutes at 0.1% health, invulnerable, refusing to transition into the next phase.

but anyway, i digress!

Shit. This has gone way beyond voice chat, hasn't it?

yeah, and i can see how you'd link my comments on the difference in how people experience the same game/content to the subjectivity of the word "serious"

but like i've said quite a lot by now, my definition of serious (and/or the degrees of seriousness or lack thereof) could absolutely be debated and isn't at all an objective thing. i generalized incorrectly and acknowledge being wrong in doing so.

i only take issue with being accused of resorting to the 'no true scotsman' fallacy when i never said you weren't a true (end)gamer. the implication was simply that, in the context of modern MMOs- by opting out of voice chat you weren't *serious*- which ties back in with the paragraph just above this one.

[SkyeWindbinder]

I like Taco Bell, personally.

Especially their Doritos Tacos! Oh god, I could use one right NAO!!!!

[Technyze]

I like Taco Bell, personally.

Especially their Doritos Tacos! Oh god, I could use one right NAO!!!!

Thats what I got! And a Chapula with steak and nacho cheese.

[Vilhem]

Thats what I got! And a Chapula with steak and nacho cheese.

Chalupa.

Taco Bell and its fake Mexican makes my brain hurt >.>

[SkyeWindbinder]

Chalupa.

Taco Bell and its fake Mexican makes my brain hurt >.>

Mine too, because it messes up my blood pressure. lol

But the taste is so good! I can't help it!

[Technyze]

Butchered that spelling!