Pipe Dreams: Expanding the healer pool

[Lady]

lol Hey, you're the one who claimed to have a headache because you couldn't comprehend! It's not my fault! Other people can give their clashing views and keep up, but it's making your brain hurt. Maybe this discussion is out of your league? Go pop some advil and lay down. ^_^

Lesson learned: Don't get on Skye's bad side.

<3 Skye <3

[SkyeWindbinder]

Lesson learned: Don't get on Skye's bad side.

<3 Skye <3

RAWRRR! lol

[Dzian]

I don't think you get what my meaning is. It's ok, most people don't. lol

My point is, since the WHM is built around the very act of healing, unlike any other class is, it should continue beingthe sole dominant healer.

MNK is built around the very act of doing DPS. it should continue to be the sole dominent DPS role.
DRG is built around the act of doing DPS. it should continue to be the sole dominant DPS role.
What do either of those jobs do when they are not doing dps? they have only one role in a party DPS.

BLM, built for DPS via black magic. Dragoon, built for DPS via spears. Monk, built for DPS via fists.

WHM, Built for healing VIA CURATIVE MAGIC

Which is why, until another class that is build solely and completely around healing is introduced, it would be phenomenally stupid for another class out of the existing classes to be able to heal as well and as strongly as a WHM. If you want another class to be comparable to a WHM as far as healing, the ONLY logical way that can happen i if another class built for healing is introduced.

HALLELUJAH!!!!

Also Indigo is right. I dont anyone think expects any of the existing classes / jobs to become super awesome at healing. i don't know where anyone got that idea from.

Also +1 to what fusional said. it's a clear indication to the problem i was getting at.

[fusional]

drg should be the best dps because that is what its designed for
mnk should be the best dps because that is what its designed for.
blm should be the best dps because that is what its designed for.
pld should be the best tank because that is what its designed for.

See the problem?

it's not as simple as "being the best tank"- it's about being the best tank in certain different circumstances. paladin and warrior achieved this by the end of 1.0. paladin was the superior tank for bosses, heavy hitters, and long fights with high healing requirements. it was also the superior tank for groups with really great dps, as paladin found it faster and easier to reach the enmity ceiling. warrior was the superior tank for trash, light hitters, and short fights with low healing requirements. it was also the superior tank for groups with average dps, as not only would they likely not rip hate from damage- but their lower dps meant getting a dps boost from the tank position was very helpful.

it's not as simple as "being the best DPS"- it's about being the best DPS in certain different circumstances. and dps jobs achieved this by the end of 1.0 with one exception. BLM was incredibly strong (not always the best, but often at or near the top) in pretty much every situation. otherwise, monk was superior single target damage on short fights- especially with high defense mobs (chimera) or mobs weak to magic/fire (MM). dragoon was the superior aoe dps, and superior single target dps on longer fights (due to the nature of power surge). warrior, in being able to tank, was never really designed to compete with blm/drg/mnk for highest dps- but its aoe was fast and bursty, making it ideal in the *shortest* fights with multiple mobs (ie: princess- though dragoon was much better in the hands of a skilled player, warrior was the safest and easiest choice in guaranteeing good aoe dps).

and this brings us to healers. it's not as simple as all being the best healer. that's not how design should work, or people will just run the numbers and always stack the one class which tops the charts. therefore introducing another healer would be fine so long as the two jobs are superior in different fights/contexts and don't handle exactly the same.

as long as there are different strengths and weaknesses to each job/class, and each job/class has content in which it can shine- balancing isn't an issue and the classes will not only not be neglected, but the community benefits from greater diversity, giving the developers more freedom to design content with this diversity in mind, which benefits the community even more.

[IndigoDarkwolf]

it's not as simple as "being the best tank"- it's about being the best tank in certain different circumstances. paladin and warrior achieved this by the end of 1.0. paladin was the superior tank for bosses, heavy hitters, and long fights with high healing requirements. it was also the superior tank for groups with really great dps, as paladin found it faster and easier to reach the enmity ceiling. warrior was the superior tank for trash, light hitters, and short fights with low healing requirements. it was also the superior tank for groups with average dps, as not only would they likely not rip hate from damage- but their lower dps meant getting a dps boost from the tank position was very helpful.

it's not as simple as "being the best DPS"- it's about being the best DPS in certain different circumstances. and dps jobs achieved this by the end of 1.0 with one exception. BLM was incredibly strong (not always the best, but often at or near the top) in pretty much every situation. otherwise, monk was superior single target damage on short fights- especially with mobs weak to magic/fire. dragoon was the superior aoe dps, and superior single target dps on longer fights (due to the nature of power surge). warrior, in being able to tank, was never really designed to compete with blm/drg/mnk for highest dps- but its aoe was fast and bursty, making it ideal in the *shortest* fights with multiple mobs.

and this brings us to healers. it's not as simple as all being the best healer. that's not how design should work, or people will just run the numbers and always stack the one class which tops the charts. therefore introducing another healer would be fine so long as the two jobs are superior in different fights/contexts and don't handle exactly the same.

as long as there are different strengths and weaknesses to each job/class, and each job/class has content in which it can shine- balancing isn't an issue and the classes will not only not be neglected, but the community benefits from greater diversity, giving the developers more freedom to design content with this diversity in mind, which benefits the community even more.

Ah, cripes. Now Skye's gotten people on the same side of the fence to start arguing with each other.

Dzian was not arguing that there needs to be one best of anything, s/he was trying to illustrate that it's a problem if you try to say there needs to be one best of anything without going into those details about circumstance. So, that list was a counter-argument.

Skye's argument, as I read it, was that WHMs should always be the best healer because they are the only healer. It's circular reasoning, or at least was until some ten thousand words later Skye finally said "until a new healing job is introduced".

[Dzian]

Oh I just took it that fusional was pointing out what the problem was with that scenario.

I don't want best classes myself. What I want is to simply know that whatever class i choose to play works.

In a scenario where if i want to go as a monk I can if i want to go as a blm I can. but regardless of what I go as I will be usefull in some way.

I really dont want to see large scale 24 man raids with 4 whms 3 plds and 17 because there the best jobs. I had said earlier I would like to see 24 man raids with 24 different jobs. huge amounts of diversity there. though I admit that many jobs is A long way off.

[fusional]

Ah, cripes. Now Skye's gotten people on the same side of the fence to start arguing with each other.

Dzian was not arguing that there needs to be one best of anything, s/he was trying to illustrate that it's a problem if you try to say there needs to be one best of anything without going into those details about circumstance. So, that list was a counter-argument.

Skye's argument, as I read it, was that WHMs should always be the best healer because they are the only healer. It's circular reasoning, or at least was until some ten thousand words later Skye finally said "until a new healing job is introduced".

fair enough. i admit that i haven't been keeping up over the last few pages. my apologies. i agree with Dzian, then, and i'm sure my post only helps to underscore his in any case.

Oh I just took it that fusional was pointing out what the problem was with that scenario.

I don't want best classes myself. What I want is to simply know that whatever class i choose to play works.

absolutely agree. and when any class you choose to play works, that kind of diversity only rewards the player base by giving them more options.

I really dont want to see large scale 24 man raids with 4 whms 3 plds and 17 because there the best jobs.

agree again. i often get the suspicion that many people who argue against further diversity are doing so from a perspective only considering low-man content. i don't think they're fully taking into consideration what it means for 24 man raids (which we are absolutely getting), whether it's because they've never bothered with large-scale pve content before, have no interest in it, prefer low-man content... or simply forget we're going to have an incredibly tiny number of jobs to fill a 24man raid in 2.0.

either way, without further class/job diversity we can almost guarantee that 24 man content will fizzle.

[Reika]

It has been said that Arcanist can aid the party. They will have different color carby's to either aid the party or deal damage.

Well, WTB healing carby.

[Klive]

Sooo there can only be one class/job for healing.

That is like one flavor of ice cream.

"I love ice cream, can I have some?"

"Sure, hope you like vanilla!"

"Vanilla is ok, you have anything else?"

"We, at Squarin Robins, feel options confuse people on debating on what the best flavor is, so we only provide one to ensure you always get the best flavor we provide!"

[SkyeWindbinder]

MNK is built around the very act of doing DPS. it should continue to be the sole dominent DPS role.
DRG is built around the act of doing DPS. it should continue to be the sole dominant DPS role.
What do either of those jobs do when they are not doing dps? they have only one role in a party DPS.

But the thing is, they are not the ONLY classes that specialize solely in DPS. Also, they do have abilities that are monk and dragoon specific. DPS though they may be, they are not built completely from head to toe for it. DPS is not their sole definitive specialty. Healing is a WHM's sole definitive specialty. (Why must I have to continue explaining this? lol) You can't expect another class of the existing classes to outheal or compare with the healing of the WHM. As I said, it wouldn't make a lick of sense. Just as you couldn 't expect a monk to outdo a BLM at offensive magic. WHM is unique from other classes in that what it does (not just how it does it). Yuo can't expect someone who specializes in martial arts yet may have some decent healing powers to outheal a friggin mage who's very powers are built solely around buff and heal.

Built for healing VIA CURATIVE MAGIC

LOL But in all seriousness, I don't see your point. My point is, WHM is built completely around healing. Unless another class is built the same way, it shouldn't be able to outheal a WHM.

Also Indigo is right. I dont anyone think expects any of the existing classes / jobs to become super awesome at healing. i don't know where anyone got that idea from.

Probably an implication Indigo came up with (before the poor dear's brain started hurting, lol) because I put my $0.02 in about the subject, which is that the WHM should definitely remain the best healer until another class is introduced that is built around the power of healing. Likely a huge case of misunderstanding. And headaches. Well, at least for one of us. :P