Pipe Dreams: Expanding the healer pool

[AceofRains]

Consider it like a flow. There are rituals that try to keep time and the things that occur over it to yourself, to your own people, to try to become an impression in time, to try to make your story or the things you do or happen to you more... real. It's a mindset that considers life as one continuous and largely simultaneous history, and one can hide in that general flow, or try to pull themselves out from it, taking its instinct or inspiration. Sorry, this all came to mind all at once, and it's still not very solid. The title I thought of had a lot to do with the Archons, and as such was FFXIV-specific. Grey Mage would be closest to the meaning, but the impression is off, since they feel a lot more set into or close to their culture or group of friends than "grey" would seem to indicate. But, they're still not shamans nor priests. They're definitely a type of mage, with both an academic and emotional understanding of its phenomena.

Hmm I'm still a little lost, but I believe that is the aim with necromancer. Although it lacks the part about archons, Necromancers nonetheless are an esoteric job in the sense that you seem to be describing. If you mean by grey mage, a somewhat fusion between black mage and white mage, that is also kinda what I'm describing. Otherwise, I'm kinda lost still, sorry ._ .

[Shurrikhan]

Hmm I'm still a little lost, but I believe that is the aim with necromancer. Although it lacks the part about archons, Necromancers nonetheless are an esoteric job in the sense that you seem to be describing. If you mean by grey mage, a somewhat fusion between black mage and white mage, that is also kinda what I'm describing. Otherwise, I'm kinda lost still, sorry ._ .

By "Grey" I guess I was thinking of the part that can get lost in something, either life as a history (rather than the current moment), or the moment (rather than history). It keeps things alive and treats things as having never been truly present except in a continual idea, but neither of those roles has anything to do with 'death'. It does not resurrect. It merely isolates or expands. The name "Archon" itself may work for this, as one who is an Archon for a people, or an idea, or, in the FFXIV sense, one who can see through time and can often be slightly dissociated as a result.

[Atoli]

I realize that many people disagree with me, but I'm still gonna state my opinion:
I think it makes games WORSE to have several classes which are basically the same thing.
I'd rather have WHM expanded with new skills or at worst a second JOB branching off of Conjurer.
More variety in playing WHM doesn't hurt, it's actually a good thing.
But if other healing classes are created, every class ends up all wishy-washy like in..hm..let me think..every generic fantasy MMO with multipe healers out there? No thanks, I hate that.

An example.
In MegaTen:Imagine you basically have only three choices of what to be, Long-Range, Close-Range or Magic. And it doesn't hurt the variety at all, because with a giant amount of gainable skills, expertises etc. everyone can build their character according to their playing style.
Since it's possible to use skills from other classes in FFXIV a focus on more variety in every class/job is certainly possible here as well. That would give people the chance to play the way they'd like best while sticking to a simple "1 main healer class"-setup.
Because after all, creating different CLASSES of healers would for sure take away from the already existing healer.

[Radaghast]

Same logic could be applied to dps and tanks, which would make a very boring and stale game. You don't see one type of tank or dps, why should healing be any different? I think the most glaring option that's lacking is being able to heal and dps at the same time style. Vanguard Disciples and Blood Mages made awesome alternatives to the boring sit back 20 feet and spam 1 heal button, which is essentially what white mage is.

Either way it's catering to different playstyles is where it matters, the more you have the better your game will be off.

[Mychael]

Same logic could be applied to dps and tanks, which would make a very boring and stale game. You don't see one type of tank or dps, why should healing be any different? I think the most glaring option that's lacking is being able to heal and dps at the same time style. Vanguard Disciples and Blood Mages made awesome alternatives to the boring sit back 20 feet and spam 1 heal button, which is essentially what white mage is.

Either way it's catering to different playstyles is where it matters, the more you have the better your game will be off.

I guess my problem with most suggestions in this thread is, if a job can both DD and heal, then why would you want a job that can just heal? Unless of course the combination job couldn't heal enough, in which case you would replace him with a pure healer and the combo job would never be used (FFXI Dancer had this reputation back when I was still playing--couldn't heal enough in endgame to make up for a WHM, and couldn't DD enough to justify replacing a pure DD job).

Jobs like that have their place, but there never seems to be a way to balance a DD/Healing combo job and a straight healer; one is always better.

EDIT: I should add, though, that in the situation I described above with DNC, you could make up for the deficit by having TWO such jobs in your party--i.e. two half-healers, half-damage dealers make one damage dealer and one healer.

I'm not absolutely against adding more healers (though I seem to be), I'm just afraid that healing classes are more susceptible (than DPS or tanks) to becoming obselete to minimally-better options. I'm probably just paranoid, but I'll stay that way. D=

[AceofRains]

I guess my problem with most suggestions in this thread is, if a job can both DD and heal, then why would you want a job that can just heal? Unless of course the combination job couldn't heal enough, in which case you would replace him with a pure healer and the combo job would never be used (FFXI Dancer had this reputation back when I was still playing--couldn't heal enough in endgame to make up for a WHM, and couldn't DD enough to justify replacing a pure DD job).

Jobs like that have their place, but there never seems to be a way to balance a DD/Healing combo job and a straight healer; one is always better.

EDIT: I should add, though, that in the situation I described above with DNC, you could make up for the deficit by having TWO such jobs in your party--i.e. two half-healers, half-damage dealers make one damage dealer and one healer.

I'm not absolutely against adding more healers (though I seem to be), I'm just afraid that healing classes are more susceptible (than DPS or tanks) to becoming obselete to minimally-better options. I'm probably just paranoid, but I'll stay that way. D=

That's not true that one will always be better, to have more you have to have less of something else. Let me take for instance, white mage and the necromancer from my thread about it. Necromancer is a DD/healer, but lacks the capacity to actually defend the party, unlike white mage who can bolster defenses through protect and stoneskin and has a fail safe heal in case of emergency. In other example is paladin, who is a healer in his own right but can tank as well, due to his nature, his he suffers from less damage output which generates him less natural damage enmity and less overall damage for the party.

With hybrid jobs, what one lacks in one area, they make up for in another. If they do not have the capacity to fulfill a certain duty it then falls upon the party to find someone who plays a job that DOES fill that duty.

EDIT: my bad you already got that. typed that for nothing!

[Duelle]

I should add, though, that in the situation I described above with DNC, you could make up for the deficit by having TWO such jobs in your party--i.e. two half-healers, half-damage dealers make one damage dealer and one healer.

I'm not absolutely against adding more healers (though I seem to be), I'm just afraid that healing classes are more susceptible (than DPS or tanks) to becoming obselete to minimally-better options. I'm probably just paranoid, but I'll stay that way.

Two mediocre hybrids don't make up for a solid healer or solid DPS on the field. It looks good only on paper.

If you're using the mess with WHM in FFXI as your reference, the problem was more due to lack of staying power and a wonky formula with which to calculate heals. Pre-abyssea, SCH and RDM could easily outlast a WHM between Sublimation and Refresh. Two jobs that could restore their MP vs a job that could not. Secondly is the cure formula, which was recently revamped because unlike nukes and melee DPS, which had stat penalties, healing since the game came to the US did not. As WHM in XI was pretty much the only real healer, it was ludicrous that they were not the best and most efficient at healing, and the devs noticed that and changed things (several years too late).

Sharing the role of healer with other jobs is not what can hurt WHM. It is when other jobs have something that should come baseline like staying power and WHM lacks it that they get kicked to the curb.

[Mychael]

Two mediocre hybrids don't make up for a solid healer or solid DPS on the field. It looks good only on paper.

I really couldn't win with this. If I hadn't edited that in, someone would have called me out on exactly that.

If you're using the mess with WHM in FFXI as your reference, the problem was more due to lack of staying power and a wonky formula with which to calculate heals. Pre-abyssea, SCH and RDM could easily outlast a WHM between Sublimation and Refresh. Two jobs that could restore their MP vs a job that could not. Secondly is the cure formula, which was recently revamped because unlike nukes and melee DPS, which had stat penalties, healing since the game came to the US did not. As WHM in XI was pretty much the only real healer, it was ludicrous that they were not the best and most efficient at healing, and the devs noticed that and changed things (several years too late).

Sharing the role of healer with other jobs is not what can hurt WHM. It is when other jobs have something that should come baseline like staying power and WHM lacks it that they get kicked to the curb.

I absolutely agree with all of this. I realize I come off as completely against adding a new healer, but I'd rather consider myself extremely reserved. I would like to see more options, but here are some of the concerns I've been trying to voice in this thread (sorry if I'm just repeating myself...)

1. Many of the hybrid options that have been suggested in this thread would easily be better than having a white mage in the party. If they were nerfed specifically to prevent this, they would probably not be worthwhile over a strong healer. While I'm admittedly a staunch defender of WHM, I'd also rather not see any unwanted classes in XIV.

2. So many people want a HoT-focused job. To me, this is them asking for a job where they can main heal without actually paying attention. Harsh? Yep. But it's the truth. "Healing over time" spells should NOT be a job's main focus on healing (even besides being unable to recover from spike damage). The amount healed over what amount of time is really a ratio that should be kept in check over all healing jobs. If a job that only has healing-over-time spells is able to keep up with a job that only has "instant" heals (i.e. Cure), then they have accomplished what I said earlier, being able to heal just as well without pressing as many buttons. In my opinion, healing over time spells should be a utility available to all healers, and should never make up a class entirely.

3. As an expansion of my second point, so many people are suggesting classes that specialize in one nook of a healer, i.e. group heals vs. single-target heals; slow, high heals vs. fast, low heals; etc. You're welcome to disagree, but I view all of these as integral parts of a good healing job. If you don't have all of them, you're missing something. In a large group, you can always have one of each specialized healer, but for normal content you only have one healer--not 5, as with DPS.

4. It's very difficult to find alternative methods to main heal besides restoring health. It's kind of the definition of healing. With DPS, I think I can safely say that there are multiple kinds for different reasons, but most importantly you need to include multiple kinds of DDs so it's a moot point. With tanking, you can tank by taking less damage from hits, having more HP to lose, getting hit less, etc. All of these is making use of a completely different mechanic, but for the most part are feasible in any situation. With healing, you can heal by...giving HP to others. It's difficult to find different ways to give HP back. You could suggest that the healing "comes from different sources" (TP, MP, etc), but it's difficult to manage that in a way that doesn't become extremely situational (Can the healer get close enough to build tp? Will the healer run out of mp? If the healer has to sacrifice to heal, will they end up dying from an AoE after?).

5. Since FFXIV characters can access all classes, we're more likely to expect someone to come as a job they don't like. It's a lot easier to expect someone to change jobs and kick them if they refuse than it would be to kick a character who is playing the wrong job in WoW.

TL;DR: By all means, add another healer. However, it's more complicated than just thinking up cool lore-acceptable ways that a character can restore health.


P.S. I'm totally in for the damage mitigation class. It's probably just as effective as a healer (i.e. the end result is the same--the player has more HP than they started with), but very different, and can retain their value if in a party alongside a traditional healer.

Equips a set of flame-resistant gear.

[Duelle]

1. Many of the hybrid options that have been suggested in this thread would easily be better than having a white mage in the party. If they were nerfed specifically to prevent this, they would probably not be worthwhile over a strong healer. While I'm admittedly a staunch defender of WHM, I'd also rather not see any unwanted classes in XIV.

Not necessarily. I believe WHM should be rounded out wherever it may be lacking rather than nerfing other healers or weakening them in parts where they'd be fine. WHM currently has a snare (Heavy from Stonera), Magic Defense Down (Stone), a Bleed (Aero) and a CC (Repose) on top of being able to heal and remove debuffs. It's not like this is a WHM from a single player FF game where all they have is regular attacks and cure spells.

2. So many people want a HoT-focused job. To me, this is them asking for a job where they can main heal without actually paying attention. Harsh? Yep. But it's the truth. "Healing over time" spells should NOT be a job's main focus on healing (even besides being unable to recover from spike damage). The amount healed over what amount of time is really a ratio that should be kept in check over all healing jobs. If a job that only has healing-over-time spells is able to keep up with a job that only has "instant" heals (i.e. Cure), then they have accomplished what I said earlier, being able to heal just as well without pressing as many buttons. In my opinion, healing over time spells should be a utility available to all healers, and should never make up a class entirely.

The benefits of HoTs is that they are generally quicker to cast than a full blown cure. It requires paying the same amount of attention as a "traditional" healer, with the added challenge of having to deal with enemies that can dispel (which are far more common in FF games than in any era of WoW)

I am also not against giving WHM access to a HoT (or redesigning Regen to become a real HoT) and an instant/short-cast mitigation spell, but I would not want WHM themed around them the way the other healers should. I did keep this in mind, which is why I would want additional jobs to have at the least one heal of a different type to supplement their gameplay while still keeping whatever style of healing I suggested for them. A CHM could be designed around zone heals and attack heals but still get one traditional single-target heal to supplement their healing output. A GRM could be designed around HoT's and still get one AoE casted heal. An ORL could be built around transfusion heals while still getting a HoT.

3. As an expansion of my second point, so many people are suggesting classes that specialize in one nook of a healer, i.e. group heals vs. single-target heals; slow, high heals vs. fast, low heals; etc. You're welcome to disagree, but I view all of these as integral parts of a good healing job. If you don't have all of them, you're missing something. In a large group, you can always have one of each specialized healer, but for normal content you only have one healer--not 5, as with DPS.

This is where we'll differ, though I see where you're trying to go.

Bringing in a dreaded comparison, let's look at WotLK era WoW, which had four healers. Holy Paladins, Resto Shaman, Resto Druids, and Holy Priests.

One was single target heals for the most part but could easily heal in group content, one had smart heals for the most part but could easily heal group content, one had mostly HoTs but could easily heal content, and Holy Priests were pretty much the standard healer like WHM is. A Holy Priest HAD access to HoTs and other things aside from their single target and group heals, mind you.

The four depend on mana bars but had different mechanics and as such played differently. Target priorities on a shaman are different from a paladin in a raid environment, because the raid would take advantage of the pally's single target heals to heal tank damage while the shaman would be there to cover damage from mechanics, AoE and splash damage thanks to their smart heals.

To give you an example, phase two of Mimiron was one of those places where Shaman (smart heals) and Druids (HoTs) got to really put their tools to use, as aside from AoE and other mechanics, the boss had an ability called Heat Wave that would hit the entire raid every couple of seconds. While the priests and paladins would focus on the tanks (who were still taking hits because Heat Waves procced separately from all other actions the boss performed), the druids would run and HoT people and the Shaman's smart heals picked who needed it most. Even moreso in hardmode where you're moving around to control the extra mechanics (frost bombs and the boss room catching on fire).

4. It's very difficult to find alternative methods to main heal besides restoring health.

I'm not sure why we would want something in the healing role that did not involve restoring health. You restore health with a healer, but the tools with which they do so vary depending on the class concept. That's what I am talking about in my OP.

You could suggest that the healing "comes from different sources" (TP, MP, etc), but it's difficult to manage that in a way that doesn't become extremely situational (Can the healer get close enough to build tp? Will the healer run out of mp? If the healer has to sacrifice to heal, will they end up dying from an AoE after?).

This isn't much of a concern provided the healers in question can do something about their own resources and the gameplay is balanced with that in mind. Of course, each healer having their own resource system would help immensely, but that ship has already sailed.

5. Since FFXIV characters can access all classes, we're more likely to expect someone to come as a job they don't like. It's a lot easier to expect someone to change jobs and kick them if they refuse than it would be to kick a character who is playing the wrong job in WoW.

Regardless of the system, people will play what they like. The job system is not an excuse to get people to switch or play things they don't want to play in order to progress. There are people that wanted to only play SMN, or PUP, or non-cure-bitch COR, or BST, and they should not be ignored this time around. Getting to play as your favorite job only makes the game more fun, and I don't see why people should be denied that.

[fusional]

But if other healing classes are created, every class ends up all wishy-washy like in..hm..let me think..every generic fantasy MMO with multipe healers out there? No thanks, I hate that.

can you cite some legitimate examples? because each healing class in WoW (the most successful 'generic' fantasy MMO or MMO of any other kind ever made) had very distinct identities before MoP and there was nothing 'wishy-washy' about it. priest and mystic have very different healing styles in tera and yet both can get the job done.

so what is this position based on? summoners in FFXI not being designed as a healing class but being used as one by the community?

(protip: this only happened due to a major lack of healing classes other than WHM. RDM suffered a similar fate for the same reason. weird how that works, right?)

Because after all, creating different CLASSES of healers would for sure take away from the already existing healer.

in what universe, and why? because suddenly healers aren't pampered princesses with pick of the litter of any groups due to an out of control supply/demand ratio? (protip: lots of newer games see this issue with tanks lately because there aren't enough tanking classes)

and even if it *did*, it would only be that way short-term. if your game is going to last more than a year, though, eventually it's a simple numbers game and there just aren't enough people leveling your ONE healing class to support new groups. this was patently obvious at the end of 1.0.

so then you have two options: you either continue to allow powerleveling to allow people to level up without waiting seven years for one of the three people left on the server who haven't leveled their healer yet to log on, or you add another healer or two.