Pipe Dreams: Expanding the healer pool

[Altena]

You can have a fairly wide range of "reducing the risk of death" when you take things like damage mitigation, enfeebling, enhancing, etc.. But I do feel WHM should be the only "cure bomb" job.. They could pull an XI again and create a DNC style class with some huge heals as a support role but generally speaking I think WHM should be the only real "cure bomb" or single target healer.

I do think that WHM's elemental nukes should get abolished but that is another entirely different topic. I was always a fan of the idea that WHM was the be all and end all of healing.. but eh, fairly apathetic at this point. There are so many "job vs. job" threads going around at the moment that is getting a little overwhelming.

[Jeronlmo]

Given I do not believe any of the jobs will work like they did in 1.0... I did

Considering WHM in XIV has MUCH more utility built in than the White Mage from the console FFs, this is not an accurate assertion to make. Not to mention that I doubt WHM would stay as it was at the end of 1.0, and think it would gain more to round it out.

I wrote the OP with focus on the types of heals for a reason. Hence my saying "you can do whatever with utility". You can give WHM and the other healers different kinds of utility depending on what makes sense for each of them (as I mentioned, CHM could have a snare and a root as opposed to the Magic Evasion Down, Bleed and Sleep spells WHM has access to).

That's not exactly what I'm asking for either. What I'm asking for is design where if a guy on CHM shouts for a group you easily take him as your healer as quickly as you would a guy on GRM or WHM. I don't want one becoming the obvious choice or the preferred choice while the others are kicked to the side for being not ideal.

Your playing both sides of the fence throughout this thread...

If WHM was to stay the top-end healer, then its always an obvious choice, if the content is built around having other types of healing that you dont even need to think about (smart-healing) then it would end up being dungeon to dungeon on which healer is better, so unless your saying that even with all of these new types of healers the content is still based around whm always being the best... it cant/wont work that way.

I can only assume your a big WoW fan... healing in that game is a joke, they tried to do exactly what your asking for, these "smart heals" you basically just spam and it heals the whole group.

Im a main WHM, and always have been, so likely a bit bias, but im not against other types of heals, but they should be emergency heals like smn/rdm, but not their main purpose. Whm in 1.0 could easily DD, I did it all the time in AV/CC when HP was full and inbetween mob attacks, I generally did 3-4k less than the BLM's, I think whm was over-powered in 1.0 dmg wise compared to blm's but I kinda like the fact I had the option to DD I guess and do decent at it. People should have the ability to DD and off-heal in the same way I could heal and off-DD I guess.

I would actually prefer whm to do virtually nothing but healing and regaining spells like paralyna/blindna/silena/stona and end the "we must combine everything together for a dumber generation" mentality but considering 2.0 is supposed to be more PvP based it would sadly make sense to do what I said above...

[fusional]

All this diversity you're asking for, all the mentions in previous threads about making things more skill based and less based on leet gear, the wishing in vain for a way to distinguish or enhance or balance the jobs, would not occur if the original class system hadn't been heaped in with everything else that was complained about after launch.

the original class system did NOT encourage skillful play. in fact, it detracted from it. (1 1 1 1 1 1 punishing barbs 1 1 1 1 1 1)

the original class system did NOT distinguish classes/roles and did NOT balance them. letting every class pick and choose from a hodgepodge of the same abilities does not make that class distinguished. and most of all, homogenization != balance.

it baffles me that anyone with MMO experience outside FFXIV could have played 1.0 before yoshi took over and call any of those ideas sound. launch was an absolute amalgam of dubious design choices.

Why You want variety for Healer Role? Just because "others" do it?
So let's fail like others MMO

which MMO failures might you be referencing, exactly? you do realize that almost anything you can say here just works against your point, as they almost certainly were still more successful than ffxiv 1.0... right?

and what about EQ and WoW? FFXI? you're calling them failures? please.

Seriously, WHM don't need another Healer Role, Just because WHM can do his job really well.

so here we have yet another argument for 24 man raids with 4 paladins, 5 white mages, and 15 black mages. why? because they do their jobs really well, so we don't need anything else. yeah, and you think this is a model for success? jesus.

I don't wanna see this:

LFG 1 Healer AV WHM onry.

as opposed to how it is already? and what if they're running 2 healers and already have 1 of the other healer, leaving one slot for WHM?

i just... i can't.

i can't do this thread anymore.

unbelievable.

[Duelle]

Your playing both sides of the fence throughout this thread.

I like to think that my view on things is a little more complex. There are parts where I'm willing to make concessions, but I really do think the game'll benefit from having a roster for each role where they can perform comparibly at their main role. There are ways to help classes distinguish themselves without making one clearly superior to the other for content. It really falls to aesthetics, mechanics, rotation, and in this case, heal types available per class.

I can only assume you're a big WoW fan... healing in that game is a joke, they tried to do exactly what your asking for, these "smart heals" you basically just spam and it heals the whole group.

I have played WoW since vanilla, but I'm not exactly a fan. Otherwise I'd be gobbling up the garbage they've been calling "lore" for the last two expansions.

Maybe you forgot, but the way smart heals work is that they have a target limit, unlike AoE heals which affect everyone in range. A Curaga can hit 8 people in a full party so long as they're in range with no pentalties. Chain Heal can heal up to 4 targets, loses effectiveness for every additional target it hits, and will always pick the targets within range that have the lowest HP. That alone creates a difference in how you play and prioritize your heal targets, because by design you have smart heals or have AoE but not both within the same class.

I think whm was over-powered in 1.0 dmg wise compared to blm's but I kinda like the fact I had the option to DD I guess and do decent at it. People should have the ability to DD and off-heal in the same way I could heal and off-DD I guess.

IMO WHM was fine because it played more like a healer in a modern MMO like Rift, WoW and CoH rather than the FFXI version. Besides, we know when the sh*t hits the fan any healer worth their salt will start their healing rotation and not even look at the DPS abilities.

[Biggs]

I have never understood why chemist has not been used in more FF's than it has. Considering how closly you could tie it to one or more gathering and crafting jobs, and how far removed its abilities and animations would be from white mage, it would seem to me to be a no-brainer to add to the game. But I guess thats why I don't make video games for a living.

[Jeronlmo]

I have never understood why chemist has not been used in more FF's than it has. Considering how closly you could tie it to one or more gathering and crafting jobs, and how far removed its abilities and animations would be from white mage, it would seem to me to be a no-brainer to add to the game. But I guess thats why I don't make video games for a living.

It would likely turn into another "I want to play chemist but its to expencive because I have to buy potions and its so unfair" convo's just like people bitching about archer/ranger type jobs and arrows... now we have no arrows. The job was very heavy DD (glass cannon) because it cost money to use, unless you suggesting a potion based job that... takes no potions, I would rather just not have it.

[Jeronlmo]

I like to think that my view on things is a little more complex. There are parts where I'm willing to make concessions, but I really do think the game'll benefit from having a roster for each role where they can perform comparibly at their main role. There are ways to help classes distinguish themselves without making one clearly superior to the other for content. It really falls to aesthetics, mechanics, rotation, and in this case, heal types available per class.

I have played WoW since vanilla, but I'm not exactly a fan. Otherwise I'd be gobbling up the garbage they've been calling "lore" for the last two expansions.

Maybe you forgot, but the way smart heals work is that they have a target limit, unlike AoE heals which affect everyone in range. A Curaga can hit 8 people in a full party so long as they're in range with no pentalties. Chain Heal can heal up to 4 targets, loses effectiveness for every additional target it hits, and will always pick the targets within range that have the lowest HP. That alone creates a difference in how you play and prioritize your heal targets, because by design you have smart heals or have AoE but not both within the same class.

IMO WHM was fine because it played more like a healer in a modern MMO like Rift, WoW and CoH rather than the FFXI version. Besides, we know when the sh*t hits the fan any healer worth their salt will start their healing rotation and not even look at the DPS abilities.

"Smart Heals" in FF terms like curaga also gave massive hate, which is why virtually none used Curaga IV, the only time I ever used it was as a whm/sch (-cast time sch ability, full -50% cast time gear, curaga4) when zerging a kirin or something if benediction was down. The limit to the amount of people "Smart Heals" like those in WoW hit is generally an entire party, which would likely be the majority of the games content.

It just seems like a job based around smart heal(s) like WoW has would require no thinking... unless the job is a hate machine.

[Biggs]

It would likely turn into another "I want to play chemist but its to expencive because I have to buy potions and its so unfair" convo's just like people bitching about archer/ranger type jobs and arrows... now we have no arrows. The job was very heavy DD (glass cannon) because it cost money to use, unless you suggesting a potion based job that... takes no potions, I would rather just not have it.

I have given this a decent amount of thought though. Instead of being forced to buy/make stacks of potions, just buy or make one item that goes in the throw slot and is infinite like they are doing now with arrows. You can still tie the creation of said item to alchemy and the gathering of those items to botany. You could even make the item itself bestow additional effects based on what type it is.

[Niqote]

I like to think that my view on things is a little more complex. There are parts where I'm willing to make concessions.

I feel myself sliding into this problem often in the forums, sometimes it's hard to communicate your stance on something when you are realistic you can not always have everything ^^;

Maybe you forgot, but the way smart heals work is that they have a target limit, unlike AoE heals which affect everyone in range. A Curaga can hit 8 people in a full party so long as they're in range with no pentalties. Chain Heal can heal up to 4 targets, loses effectiveness for every additional target it hits, and will always pick the targets within range that have the lowest HP. That alone creates a difference in how you play and prioritize your heal targets

However Curaga did work like a ''Chain Heal'' (excuse me as I have not played WoW)
FFXIV's Curaga prioritizes amount healed by lowest HP with a maximum to each person that is half the Curaga's overall maximum potency. IE. Your max Curaga is 3000, your tank is missing 1800 HP - then he will get 1500 hp but the guy next to him only missing 400 hp will not get 1500 HP if there are other targets (max of 8)


Chemist makes me think of playing as an Accountant... you need to pay to play just like a COR or (used to) an ARC/BRD. - Unless they gave you abilities such as 'Double stock' which means if you used a potion etc under the influence of this buff - it would not detract from your current stock.
And passive abilities 'potion potency +10%' or on gear etc etc... just doesn't seem fun.

[Soonkyu]

The Chemist class would not use regular potions in their gear slots. Just like Archer/Bard, no consumable stacks for their necessary skills. That would be a giant step backwards from what they tried to do with arrows. It would likely be in the form of a ranged or offhand item. That's just my opinion on supposed items for a proposed class. They'd have swaps for whatever potion effect they might need.