Pipe Dreams: Expanding the healer pool

[strallaalaa]

maybe mmo's should create a system that involves forcing all classes to be used and necessary for things. maybe time to stop creating the same simple crap over and over too. if a few classes are all that is needed in a mmo, then it's the mmo's fault not the players. force is a good thing in mmo's for many things over flexibility. it's the only way to truly get things right in many cases.

[Dzian]

I don't know that this was due to a lack of available options. I think a lot of people just don't WANT to tank or heal.

I think a lot of that comes down to diversity. I may not want to play whm and stand still throwing cures, but that doesnt necessarily mean I don't want to heal. maybe I'd simply like alternative ways of doing it. Making by converting the damage I do against a boss into hp for my party or some other totally differnet style.

Its similar to the PLD vs NIN thing in XI. both could tank but were 2 very different styles. There was a lot of diversity in XI and XIV needs alot of diversity also. It's often not just a case of people dont like healing or dont like tanking. They simply dont like the playstyle of paladins and white mages. In XI for example I was never really a fan of WHM but I enjoyed RDM a lot. Especially in the the situations where I could dark seal aspir mobs. It felt a much more diverse role than whm and thus I enjoyed it more.

[SwordCoheir]

I think it'd be a mistake to make a bunch of other healing classes that heal as WELL as White Mage, while also having a utility beyond just the healing. We've all stated that White Mage does one thing: it heals. The last thing it needs is Chemist walking up into its territory and smacking it down off the hill, because Chemist heals just AS WELL, but Chemist also debuffs the mob. Balance is going to be a very key component to any new jobs that get added.

I think to reach that balance, you have to look at synergy. The classes need to cooperate to be stronger together, where they'd be weaker without one another. For example: Chemist comes out as a class. It has healing abilities, but these healing abilities don't quite reach the playing field of the White Mage. What the Chemist does have, however, are great buffs and debuffs. Chemist could use an Area of Effect potion that will amplify the next Curaga delivered, which only the White Mage can do, or a buff potion that will allow the next target buff (like Regen) to last a certain % longer. They're not the same jobs (and Chemist could do it all by itself, albeit a little less effectively), but they're designed to amplify each other. Imagine the Chemist popping a potion that allows it to absorb Regen up to a certain %, with that extra % of HP then transferring to another party member on the next target potion used.

This synergy can be applied to any class archetype. Damage Dealer, for instance. Maybe Samurai comes out with a plethora of armor debuffs (or an armor debuff is the natural effect of its weapon skill combo) that allow the Monk's next attacks to be more effective, or act as a guaranteed critical for the Dragoon. Dragoon has its lance for armor piercing, but the other DD classes could always benefit with some extra help in that regard.

Postulation is really as far as we can go at this point. We don't know the content, the situations, or the other variables we're going to be faced with. I just think that we don't need different options in terms of "I want to take a Chemist healer today", but options in terms of getting the most out of the classes offered. In the end, the community is ALWAYS going to do what it wants. It's going to demand that its way is right and that everyone else follow along, like it did with Ninja, Red Mage, and Summoner (to name a few) in FFXI. SE can prevent this by making each class benefit the other, without taking some of X job's toys and giving them to Z.

I'd have to agree this would make the most reasonable choice when it comes to diversifying groups, give X job something that benefits Y and Z, but Y and Z in turn has something that can benefits each other and job X. You could make them into equip-able traits (like Fingerprint of the gods) or a full time buff that can be turned on or off, but the same buffs CANNOT stack with each other in order to discourage job stacking for increased benefits.

In any case, sure they would be situational in some instances, but make them right and you will still have something the entire party could benefit from regardless of setup.

For instance...

PLD- Has buff that increases cures received from other players and those near him, the extra amount cured boosts PLD's Enmity instead of the casters.
WAR- Has a buff that can auto-pull hate off party members at critical HP for 5 seconds and steals any Enmity gained from Player for the 5 seconds.
BLM- Has a buff that increases magic and stun resistance and lowers the chance of interruption when casting.
WHM- Has a buff that reduces Enmity of other players around them (not the WHM itself can't make their job too easy).
DRG- Has a buff that increases the range of players melee attacks to that of the Dragoons and increases Crit. Rate.
MNK- Has a buff that reduces a monsters AoE damage when multiple people are grouped together.
BRD- Has a buff that strengthens other buffs (Both Magical and JA).
SMN- Has a buff that allows party members to bypass special resistances by changing 20% of damage from magic and physical attacks to neutral damage.

That's just a few ideas I could come up with that could be potentially beneficial for a group regardless of setup, but you get the idea.

[Blackpearlguy]

maybe mmo's should create a system that involves forcing all classes to be used and necessary for things. maybe time to stop creating the same simple crap over and over too. if a few classes are all that is needed in a mmo, then it's the mmo's fault not the players. force is a good thing in mmo's for many things over flexibility. it's the only way to truly get things right in many cases.

Blame the MMO because why? Somebody else told you your class was unnecessary? All the classes in 1.xx could be used for most things, but yes sometimes you had to be selective with class choice for certain types of battle. Like WAR vs PLD, PLD was good for single target, WAR for AOE. You can't blame the MMO for you being excluded for an event. That is entirely the players fault.

[TrystWildkey]

Alright, I'm throwing myself into the fray and have prepared myself for a sound beating.

I just can't hold it in any longer.

I've only read about half of this thread, but it has raised my ire a considerable degree.

All the pleas for diversity in classes/roles/healers.....

We had diversity at the very beginning of this game. All classes could use cross class skills. This would have allowed me to create my very own version of a dark knight (which was my plan). It would have allowed for an infinite number of playing styles, with each individual player bringing something different to the table based on what skills they'd learned and set. The game would have ended up much less reliant on specific gear, but more reliant on building relationships with people whose playing style fit your needs, and building skills and skillsets that gave you a distinct role or a more varied role.

Now, before you start in on me, I'm not saying that the original version did not have flaws. It most certainly did. However, in my opinion, the class system was not one of them. It was such a fantastic idea, that (as I've heard from friends) the Elder Scrolls Online is going to have a class system that is similar.

All this diversity you're asking for, all the mentions in previous threads about making things more skill based and less based on leet gear, the wishing in vain for a way to distinguish or enhance or balance the jobs, would not occur if the original class system hadn't been heaped in with everything else that was complained about after launch.

*falls off soapbox with Lalafell cuteness*

Discuss ;D

[Riv]

Chemist would be cool, but they've always been item based as far as i know.

[IndigoDarkwolf]

Alright, I'm throwing myself into the fray and have prepared myself for a sound beating.

I just can't hold it in any longer.

I've only read about half of this thread, but it has raised my ire a considerable degree.

All the pleas for diversity in classes/roles/healers.....

We had diversity at the very beginning of this game. All classes could use cross class skills. This would have allowed me to create my very own version of a dark knight (which was my plan). It would have allowed for an infinite number of playing styles, with each individual player bringing something different to the table based on what skills they'd learned and set. The game would have ended up much less reliant on specific gear, but more reliant on building relationships with people whose playing style fit your needs, and building skills and skillsets that gave you a distinct role or a more varied role.

Now, before you start in on me, I'm not saying that the original version did not have flaws. It most certainly did. However, in my opinion, the class system was not one of them. It was such a fantastic idea, that (as I've heard from friends) the Elder Scrolls Online is going to have a class system that is similar.

All this diversity you're asking for, all the mentions in previous threads about making things more skill based and less based on leet gear, the wishing in vain for a way to distinguish or enhance or balance the jobs, would not occur if the original class system hadn't been heaped in with everything else that was complained about after launch.

*falls off soapbox with Lalafell cuteness*

Discuss ;D

I could mostly agree with that.

[alkhemyXIII]

I hate bard .. but you are not a bard your an archer with some songs and I hate you so

Funny!

/10char

[AceofRains]

I don't think a job should be pinned down as some kind of pure full support or full healer because support and healing are two different things. consider the utility of stoneskin vs the use of cure. You focus on prevention before the cure. That being said, you could actually separate those responsibilities between different party members. This can allow for more diverse party set-ups and evenly distribute the responsibility of party members.

---HEALERS---

-Gladiator-
I think paladin should be refocused for stronger healing along with its tanking. I feel like thats the
paradigm it best fills.

-Arcanist-
Scholar would be pretty good. It could shift between DPS and healing.

-Thaumaturge-
In my job speculations I considered necromancer with sacrifice ability and raise stemming from conjurer. This is a DPS/PET/HEALER hybrid, allowing you to sacrifice pet a cheap pet for a cure. In addition, a necromancer should be able to perpetually come back to life in the way an undead does.

-Conjurer-
White mage is your typical healing here.

-Pugilist-
The Dancer job would work effectivly with something like drain samba making a reappearance. This would help dancer to be mainly an enfeeblist but give it a healing element.

---Support---

-Mystic- (a support orientated class I made up) It would become time mage or arithmetician. This is a class that would bolster great utility but doesn't necessarily have healing.

-Conjurer-
Conjurer is already our prime candidate, but suppose a job such as Geomancer came to it. Geomancer would refocus on DPS and support, rather than support and healing.

-Archer-
Again bards great utility makes it a support role.


These are just a few examples but mainly the point I'm trying to make is that we need to stop forcing support and healing to be under the same roof. They are two different actions that need to be diversified into more jobs.

[Dzian]

We had diversity at the very beginning of this game. All classes could use cross class skills. This would have allowed me to create my very own version of a dark knight (which was my plan). It would have allowed for an infinite number of playing styles, with each individual player bringing something different to the table based on what skills they'd learned and set. The game would have ended up much less reliant on specific gear, but more reliant on building relationships with people whose playing style fit your needs, and building skills and skillsets that gave you a distinct role or a more varied role.

The big problem there was it wasnt really diverse. what ultimately happened was everyclass used the same skill set had the same abilities, the only thing that changed was the weapon in there hands. every class had invigorate second wind bloodbath and others. and ultimately everything felt the same to play. there was no identity between roles. which is why the jobs system and class reforms both came into existance to try and create that identity. jobs need to feel diverse and different. one of my big complaints about the armoury system of 1.0 was its restrictiveness. if you were to give archer a second job option of ranger forexmaple. then ranger would play just like archer with a couple of new skills. just like bard plays just like archer with a couple of songs. another common one was the idea of giving gladiators darkknight as a dd option. but that dark knight would then have all gladiator skills sentinal reampart aegis boon etc. (not very dd like is it)
wont go into that to much as im waiting to see how it all shapes in ARR but diversity is important.

Maybe i don't like carrying a sword and shield, or being a paladin
but If i could counter a mobs attacks and punch them in the face as a monk, maybe that would be fun for me. (akin to monks counterstance in xi) to say someone doesn't like tanking or healing because they dont like a job is flawed logically.

In 1.0 i hated dragoon with a passion but you could not say I didn't like being dps. I loved monk and had great fun playing it. Tanking and healing is the same way. in XI i hated whm but would happily heal on rdm as it felt more enjoyable and less restrictive.

I want more diverse jobs that have different ways to play. even for dps roles. sometimes i get bored of monk and yearn to slash mobs with a great katana or put a bullet in them.