Paladin vs Warrior - ARR better set roles!

[RoninDarkchild]

Hahahahaha

Only thing I can think of never seeing a war tank is like Khimera or something...

Raven? seen a war tank it
Moogle? seen a war
Garuda? War
Ifrit? War
Miser? War
Story Missions? War
Job quests? War

what am I missing here?
Is there something where War is IMPOSSIBLE to tank?
Serious question here.

[Starlord]

Only thing I can think of never seeing a war tank is like Khimera or something...

Raven? seen a war tank it
Moogle? seen a war
Garuda? War
Ifrit? War
Miser? War
Story Missions? War
Job quests? War

what am I missing here?
Is there something where War is IMPOSSIBLE to tank?
Serious question here.

This is why there needs to be a noticable difference between PLD and WAR, because they are the same practically in terms of Def and there high damage makes them hold hate good. I know PLD can do all those things too.. but with War have High Damage= Faster kills why would people pick PLD over WAR?

[Reika]

This is why there needs to be a noticable difference between PLD and WAR, because they are the same practically in terms of Def and there high damage makes them hold hate good. I know PLD can do all those things too.. but with War have High Damage= Faster kills why would people pick PLD over WAR?

Then again, in order to facilitate a game that has more than one tank, which a good MMORPG has, the only difference there should be between warrior and paladin is the powers they use to get the same job done. EX: Paladin doesn't do a lot of damage with the sword alone, but with holy augmentation can match that of warriors. Same with their HP and blocking ability. XIV Warriors are like WoW's Death Knights, without the death. They are 2h tanks, and should get some boost to their parry abilities. All in all, somehow these two tanks and every tank that comes after them should have little to no difference in what they can tank, they just use their own powers to get the job done. And I think all hybrid style classes should just die by fire.

[Almalexia]

Only thing I can think of never seeing a war tank is like Khimera or something...

Raven? seen a war tank it
Moogle? seen a war
Garuda? War
Ifrit? War
Miser? War
Story Missions? War
Job quests? War

what am I missing here?
Is there something where War is IMPOSSIBLE to tank?
Serious question here.

WAR could not tank Chim after Rampage had its DEF bonus reduced.
WAR could not tank Hardarnus.
WAR could not reliably tank H-1 magitek. Not "impossible," but unnecessarily difficult. I guess it counts.

You need pld for Ifrit Extreme

Stylistic decision!

[fusional]

Stylistic decision!

first of all, 2 white mages are *required* for this. the healing load is simply too heavy for one healer to carry. using paladin allows you to switch out one healer for another dps, which both helps with getting down nails and increases damage output on ifrit, shortening the fight and therefore lessening chances for things to go wrong.

second, if you have any experience and/or understanding of the fight, you know that the main reason warrior is EXTREMELY UNRELIABLE as a tank for ifrit extreme is because if cracks pop under both healers it almost always results in a dead tank, as they cannot keep themselves alive long enough for *both* healers to run out and back.

third- notice FIVE WARRIORS. warrior single target dps is atrocious. as a result, if they ever pull hate through dps, the tank is awful. if they were stacking geared, skilled dragoons or even if they had a single BLM pushing dps to shorten the fight, the warrior would find it almost impossible to hold hate as without the ability to cure themselves and others their enmity generation is just too low.

finally- jumps. warrior doesn't have nearly as many enmity generating tools at their disposal so in addition to taking longer to reach the enmity ceiling, they can't ramp up as fast as paladin either. this is a critical weakness when it comes to the hate reset after jump. everyone else has to wait for the warrior to firmly establish aggro before doing anything, the chances of accidentally pulling aggro, getting hit by breath and putting sear on the raid skyrockets, etc etc. it's just messy.

you can call it a "stylistic decision" if you want, but that does the entire debate disservice because it absolutely isn't that simple. if people 'prefer' taking warrior to ifrit extreme, that's their choice- but it's essentially like saying you'd rather drink urine than water.

does warrior have the ability to tank ifrit extreme? yes, but they end up handicapping your entire effort. paladin suffers none of these setbacks, and as a result was preferred across the board by LSs who cared at all about winning.

[Velhart]

snip

Actually, every time I was in an Ifrit Extreme win, the tank was a WAR each time. Awesome healers were awesome. Awesome WAR was awesome. Its not to say your strategy doesn't work, but the warrior setup was quite legit.

I've seen those comments, but to me it's a pointless debate when WAR can't perform comparibly to other jobs in DPS outside of AoE spam (which got nerfed before the end of 1.0, if I recall). Not to mention WAR being hybrid goes against the whole point of their job system, which is role-centric.

WAR's hybridity was never on the table for me because if the job system is going to be roles, then I expect WAR to be put in one role or the other and go from there. 1.0 is basically hold-over content and that is something I feel some have never realized or gotten wind of.

This remains to be seen. I just get annoyed by people who go under the idea that having one master tank is a great idea. I know that mentality carried over from FFXI and older MMOs (Lineage II for a while ran the "Dark Avenger or go home" bit for tanks), and that modern MMOs have tried to squash it as best they could.

I really wish they would release more info on the battle system. At least my worries might be put to rest if I knew what they were planning to do and how they're approaching roles per job.

Well, we have 2-3 weeks till we can get a feel for them ourselves. They won't be lv.50 though and won't be able to determine how they function end game till phase 3 at least. However, we can see if abilities up to 35(?) have shown any difference to the role of Gladiator and Marauder. Actually, hell if I know if they will even give out jobs themselves. It might just be classes for now.

I agree that there shouldn't be a "one job to rule them all" method, look at my debate(?) with Starlord. I just have a gut feeling that is not how it is going to be, but for all I know I could be wrong till I get more information. I feel like we are debating over the past, and then when the future becomes the present, we will look back at the thread and go "Wow, we were way off.", or "Rabble rabble rabble.", one of the two.

[Almalexia]

you can call it a "stylistic decision" if you want, but that does the entire debate disservice because it absolutely isn't that simple. if people 'prefer' taking warrior to ifrit extreme, that's their choice- but it's essentially like saying you'd rather drink urine than water.

does warrior have the ability to tank ifrit extreme? yes, but they end up handicapping your entire effort. paladin suffers none of these setbacks, and as a result was preferred across the board by LSs who cared at all about winning.

WAR tank was perfectly serviceable. The only "deficiency" I'll grant you was 2 WHM, which was required, but not as crippling as you make it sound. At 3:30 in the second video, Ifrit does 3x Eruption and displaces the WHMs each time. The tank is fine. You will find EX displaces both WHMs throughout the fight. The tank never dies. I suppose the secret is regen. Since EX uses WS on a strict timer, the WHM simply applies regen before they have to move.

Still, I see where you're coming from. You say PLD tank means more DPS means a faster kill means less room for error. But just as Regen counters displaced WHMs, dodging WS counters a longer fight. If you can consistently dodge WS, it doesn't matter if the fight takes 8 minutes or 18 minutes. There is no "redder hotter ember" for defeating EX quickly. Once you have enough damage to break the nails and defeat EX--which 5WAR and 1DRG evidently do--the only challenge is surviving long enough to do those things.

The WAR held hate, WHMs cured him and DDs killed EX. Then we did it again. And again. It wasn't some abstract, experimental, piss-drinking attempt at doing something unconventional. WAR tank just happened to work for us the first time and we stood by it.

I'm not doing the debate a disservice by pointing out things that actually, functionally, and reproducibly work. A credit to WAR doesn't discredit PLD.

And it wasn't an LS; it was random PUG shit.