A Little Pain with my Pleasure

[Rowyne]

speaking of perspective- nobody got carried through 70 cap sunwell. NOBODY.

Truth. When it was current content, every single person in that raid had to be on their A-game, and only the best of the best were rocking Sunwell gear. Even after it was no longer current, some of the best raiders I knew looked at the Outlands Raider achievement in disdain as Sunwell remained incomplete. My guild was more interested in progression than retro raiding, so I had to look to pickup raids to complete it. Those were painful because it was always the same thing: It's previous expansion content, so foolish people think they can steamroll it. Only to find they're horribly mistaken. Three wipes later, and the raid falls apart. Sunwell really was serious business.

[Aion]

rather than punish people from dying that can be caused by non-gameplay factors(outage,network down etc), its better to REWARD people for better gameplay factors/action (or you can say, skills). example : performing 5 exp chain will give you temporary buff, etc

[Altena]

I think some people belong on this forum:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/

[fusional]

So what's the proper perspective?

depends on the example and the context. he referenced raiding history, so i explained why it matters in a specific context.

the proper perspective for that example, then, would be similar raiding experiences. but when one person has done something the other person hasn't, and the one person references what they've done as context for an argument- if the other person hasn't done the same thing or something similar it's quite foolish for them to comment unless their comments are purely hypothetical, and are labeled as such. and better yet- if they don't share the same experience or understanding, they should say as much and ask about it before commenting further.

because what good does it do to blindly argue something you haven't experienced and don't understand? based on what, exactly? based on what you heard someone else say (who also likely lacks experience and understanding)?

because that sums up about 90% of the anti-WoW and/or anti-hardcore comments on this forum.

and furthermore, you people are confusing opinion with perspective. they're not the same.

let's say you have an object. two people are viewing this same object, but one from further away. the person closest to the object picks it up, analyzes it, then tries to describe it. the person further away disagrees, describes it differently no matter what the first person says as he holds it in his hands.

so as you can see, perspective INFLUENCES opinion, but it isn't opinion. the person holding the object may incorrectly describe it, sure. his opinion of whether it has this or that quality may be wrong, sure. but by having a better perspective than the person further away, he is in a better position to have a more accurate opinion of it.

kind of like a guy stargazing with the naked eye trying to tell us what venus looks like, vs. a guy with a high-powered telescope.

and too often in history the guy with the telescope sees his descriptions of venus rejected by those looking on with a naked eye.

who would you rather ask about relativity? someone with a master's degree in physics, or someone who thumbed through a few pages in The Universe in a Nutshell? who has the better perspective? and which perspective has a higher likelihood of greater accuracy (in relation to opinion)?

If I had tried to state my opinion on what I think should be done about Ifrit nails, then my perspective would be pretty useless. I don't though, and likewise, you don't post in the lore threads (for example).

a great example, and entirely true. just as i'd be quick to throw my hat in on a conversation about pro football, but i wouldn't meddle in a discussion about hockey. it's about knowing your own strengths and weaknesses.

but people dying doesn't make them experts on the subject in a videogame, as it's not the same simply by virtue of the fact that we all die in the game at some point. if a casual player were to try some extraordinarily difficult solo leve, and die to it over and over and over again for several hours a day for days straight until they finally figure their own strategy with no outside help, no guides, just their own wits and button pressing skills- then yes, it would compare to my death experiences in progression content, and yes they would have similar perspective to me on the issue.

but that's not really the case, is it? how much of the population do you think shares the sort of experience i have with new content every patch? so then do we really have the same perspective?

not at all.

and yet, i have also experienced nearly all of the casual content in this game.

do you see where i'm going with this?

It is possible for two people to exchange dialogue about an idea even if their notions/perspectives are different. It will only result in a pointless back-and-forth if neither person can admit the validity of the other's perspective.

it is, yes. but if you'll notice, it's exceedingly common for more casual players in this forum to overstep their boundaries and try to act as expert witnesses about things they have little to no experience in. so it isn't just that their notions/perspectives are different. attempting to say the two perspectives are equivalent in that case simply because both parties *have* their own perspective is ridiculous.

i'm fine with admitting the validity of someone's perspective as long as their perspective is actually valid. it does happen sometimes. just... rarely. maybe it would happen more often if the forum didn't have such an ugly knee-jerk reaction any time you bring up warcraft or endgame.

An intelligent response to the thread could have been:

i absolutely agree, that would have been a good (and/or better) way to respond to the thread. but, as you can see, people on this forum can very easily annoy me when they talk about things they don't really understand :3

[fusional]

similar perspective to fusion's XIV experience

are you quite certain of that? yes, we both have done endgame in FFXIV, but the similarities end there.

Current problem with WoW and similar MMORPGs.

great post. thanks for linking. i just wish the devs would watch it, too.

[Mjollnir]

let's say you have an object. two people are viewing this same object, but one from further away. the person closest to the object picks it up, analyzes it, then tries to describe it. the person further away disagrees, describes it differently no matter what the first person says as he holds it in his hands.

so as you can see, perspective INFLUENCES opinion, but it isn't opinion. the person holding the object may incorrectly describe it, sure. his opinion of whether it has this or that quality may be wrong, sure. but by having a better perspective than the person further away, he is in a better position to have a more accurate opinion of it.

Ok, so what if the object that's been picked up is a mobile phone. The picker-upper gauges it's weigh, ergonomic design and can turn it on to explore its functionality, download apps and make calls. After a while, they become adept at using it and can answer their peers' every query on its workings.

So the other person has never held this mobile phone (or even one of the same model), but he is technically-minded and knows exactly what electronic components make up the object and how they interract with each other, how data is sent, received and stored and would be able to rewrite the operating software if he needed to make use of the object for his own purposes.

Two very different perspectives on the same object. Like a geologist and a warrior contemplating a rock.

Also consider a skyscraper. The office-worker inside, annoyed with the location of plug sockets has a different perspective to the architect who is annoyed about the materials he was forced to use to make it cost-effective who in turn has a different perspective to an artist passing by and marvelling at its impressive beauty. Who's perspective creates the most valid opinion on a broken window?

(I'm not trying to draw parallels with FFXIV, just using it as an example of different perspectives)

Now the OP was talking about XP loss in death, referencing XP parties in XI. Yes, I have full experience of that, so I felt my opinion was valid enough to be re-stated here in this thread too, without receiving a passive-aggressive response from one of the most experienced players who bother to post on this board.

As others have mentioned, it's usually pretty obvious on this forum when someone is talking about something they have no experience with (it seems to have happened a lot in this thread). That doesn't mean the opinions of explorers, gatherers, questers et al are any less valid.

i absolutely agree, that would have been a good (and/or better) way to respond to the thread. but, as you can see, people on this forum can very easily annoy me when they talk about things they don't really understand :3

Apologies then for annoying you. I hope I've been able to explain myself. People on this forum can annoy me very easily too when they're rude!

Anyway, I'm looking forward to using your group's videos for Nael Van Darnus (hard) on the perma-death server when it's opened up at launch. Hope to see you on there!

[fusional]

Ok, so what if the object that's been picked up is a mobile phone. The picker-upper gauges it's weigh, ergonomic design and can turn it on to explore its functionality, download apps and make calls. After a while, they become adept at using it and can answer their peers' every query on its workings.

So the other person has never held this mobile phone (or even one of the same model), but he is technically-minded and knows exactly what electronic components make up the object and how they interract with each other, how data is sent, received and stored and would be able to rewrite the operating software if he needed to make use of the object for his own purposes.

Two very different perspectives on the same object. Like a geologist and a warrior contemplating a rock.

valid in general, but not in this instance i feel. if the two people from their different walks and perspective both pick up the rock or the cell phone and fully explore it, then i think they both absolutely do have valid input to give and consideration of each perspective is important. but in reference to things like wow and endgame and progression, it's a bit different since a lot of the people weighing in on the rock (ehheheheh) haven't actually touched it. or, if they have, they picked it up, gave a cursory glance then tossed it away.

Now the OP was talking about XP loss in death, referencing XP parties in XI. Yes, I have full experience of that, so I felt my opinion was valid enough to be re-stated here in this thread too, without receiving a passive-aggressive response from one of the most experienced players who bother to post on this board.

my response to your first post was less passive-aggressive and more semi-facetious, though i suppose i could see how it wouldn't immediately come across as such. i was mostly playing the "if person says X then (probably) Y" game, which isn't *always* true, but is often enough that the assumption sticks. your response to *that* was what didn't sit well with me.

That doesn't mean the opinions of explorers, gatherers, questers et al are any less valid.

and here, we disagree in philosophy. i wouldn't say their opinions can't be valid, but i also wouldn't say their opinions are essentially equally valid, either. i wouldn't assume any two opinions are equally valid for any reason until context is given and the reason for their opinion is vetted (through evidence, experience, reason, etc).

ie: just because a person isn't an artist, that doesn't mean they can't have an opinion of art. absolutely true. people can and should have opinions. however, that doesn't necessarily mean their opinion of art is as valid as the artist's. it's only when people without perspective give an opinion of something expecting to be taken with grave respect that i tend to take issue.

or if they just say something completely insane. (ie: birth control leads to higher teen pregnancy rates! lolwut?) but that's another topic.

Apologies then for annoying you. I hope I've been able to explain myself. People on this forum can annoy me very easily too when they're rude!

Anyway, I'm looking forward to using your group's videos for Nael Van Darnus (hard) on the perma-death server when it's opened up at launch. Hope to see you on there!

i can definitely be rude and/or short (and being short is often seen as being rude) with people. i'm not the most patient person in the world. i acknowledge this character weakness, and i apologize for being rude with you. sometimes particular topics generate a sort of nebulous angst in me after i read so many daffy posts and in response i can randomly pick people out of the crowd and focus fire a bit too harshly.

as far as the perma-death server progression, that will likely have to wait until after crystal tower

[Altena]

are you quite certain of that? yes, we both have done endgame in FFXIV, but the similarities end there.

I believe we share a similar perspective but definitely have different opinions. Yes there is a difference. If you actually read my post, instead of picking out the first thing you disagree on, you would see that I make it quite obvious that perspective and opinion do not mean the same thing.

You have practically pasted your entire history on a billboard for everyone to see, yet I have not mentioned, and will not mention my history in any form of detail.

But yes, we share a similar perspective.

[fusional]

But yes, we share a similar perspective.

if you truly believe so, then let me ask you a simple question-

in FFXIV, what process do you follow in clearing content new to you?

[Altena]

if you truly believe so, then let me ask you a simple question-

in FFXIV, what process do you follow in clearing content new to you?

Figure out a strategy with the LS.