A Little Pain with my Pleasure

[fusional]

The E-peen is strong in this thread.

and every time anyone lists accomplishments to give context to an argument, a wild butthurt appears.

tell me, then. how would you demonstrate that you have experience and understanding of a game without providing context and evidence? i'm all ears.

[Laume]

and every time anyone lists accomplishments to give context to an argument, a wild butthurt appears.

tell me, then. how would you demonstrate that you have experience and understanding of a game without providing context and evidence? i'm all ears.

I don't think he was talking about you specifically. I think he was just saying in general.

[Jynx]

how would you demonstrate that you have experience and understanding of a game without providing context and evidence? i'm all ears.

Besides as pointed below it being a general comment...

Why do you use someones raiding history as a measuring stick of their accomplishments and skill as a gamer? It's about as arbitrary as throwing darts at a wall, for all we know a person could have carried a group of morons through a hectic situation, or be a braindead sod who got carried himself.

It just seems like a odd measuring stick to me, why not just speak instead of strutting abbout what you have done in previous games to try and "Back up" your points about a different game.

[Coyohma]

Why do you use someones raiding history as a measuring stick of their accomplishments and skill as a gamer? It's about as arbitrary as throwing darts at a wall, for all we know a person could have carried a group of morons through a hectic situation, or be a braindead sod who got carried himself.

Yes, it doesn't necessarily say much of anything. But all too often people speak confidently about things they have never even experienced. To ask for some tentative proof that someone has done something at all isn't the end of a conversation on the subject; it's the beginning.

[fusional]

Besides as pointed below it being a general comment...

Why do you use someones raiding history as a measuring stick of their accomplishments and skill as a gamer? It's about as arbitrary as throwing darts at a wall, for all we know a person could have carried a group of morons through a hectic situation, or be a braindead sod who got carried himself.

It just seems like a odd measuring stick to me, why not just speak instead of strutting abbout what you have done in previous games to try and "Back up" your points about a different game.

how are two people supposed to exchange dialogue about an idea if the two people have completely different notions of the idea? if they can't access the same version of the idea it generally just ends up in pointless eternal back and forth with no resolution.

so how can the two people bridge the gap and access the same or similar versions of that idea?

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and if someone lacks evidence or experience to give them the same perspective, then what? what if they continue to try to argue a point in spite of lacking evidence or experience, in spite of lacking proper perspective?

what steps do you take then to help them access the same version of an idea?

and how do you effectively communicate if they can't?

give me a solid answer without sidestepping/deflecting... or acknowledge you have no idea what to do about it. and if you have no idea what to do about it, what the hell is the point of your flailing around about it in the first place?

(and speaking of perspective- nobody got carried through 70 cap sunwell. NOBODY. if you had experience with it, you'd understand. so, as i was saying...)

[Mjollnir]

and if someone lacks evidence or experience to give them the same perspective, then what? what if they continue to try to argue a point in spite of lacking evidence or experience, in spite of lacking proper perspective?

So what's the proper perspective? For instance, I accept and agree that you can talk on the matter of a death penalty from your perspective as a challenger of end-game content. The number of people who can share your perspective is naturally limited. I made you aware of my perspective on the issue a few pages back and I got the subsequent impression that you consider it irrelevant due to me not having the same or comparable end-game experience as you do.

There's a lot more to the game than the battlefields and speed-runs. During a lot of those activities, you also have the threat of character death. So there are different perspectives than yours, equally as valid. If I had tried to state my opinion on what I think should be done about Ifrit nails, then my perspective would be pretty useless. I don't though, and likewise, you don't post in the lore threads (for example).

It is possible for two people to exchange dialogue about an idea even if their notions/perspectives are different. It will only result in a pointless back-and-forth if neither person can admit the validity of the other's perspective.

So it's acceptance that you may not be relevant to some people, in the same manner that they aren't relevant to you and qualifying your own statements with how the topic affects your activities within the game. Your opinion on the death penalty does not come from 'proper perspective', merely your own (and perhaps similar players').

An intelligent response to the thread could have been:

As a regular challenger of end-game content, I feel that the cost of repairs are enough penalty for dying. My fear is that a sterner penalty will discourage the majority of the player-base from attempting content where death is more likely and therefore artificially restrict the game as a whole. At the worst-case, this may lead developers to reduce the amount of content that I enjoy the most, meaning my friends and I will have to look elsewhere for the kind of challenge we enjoy.

Also, Mjollnir, I really like your idea of perma-death. I hope this kind of play is introduced in its own server. It could really show who the elite players are and lead to some hilarious drama!

[Altena]

Gold

Totally agreed.

Although in the same respect, perspective can come from previous experience in other games, and although I share a similar perspective to fusion's XIV experience as I too tackle end-game content, die very frequently, etc, yet do not share the same opinion as him/her, as I believe the death penalty is too weak / open for abuse.

So that opens the discussion into a new level and that is "opinion". There are always 2 sides to a coin, and naturally people are stubborn. I won't convince anyone else that doesn't initially agree, to convert over to the "dark side" as it will, nor will they convince me.

That is when you have to look at ways in which you can get the coin to stand on its end and discuss the shiny parts from both sides.

The disadvantages with increased death penalty:
- Loss of time
- Loss of game currency
- Loss of functionality (in a battle sense)
- Less incentive for "casual" players to tackle difficult content
- "Learning events" become very costly.

The advantages of increased death penalty:
- Discouragement from "spamming to win" or "zombie" killing.
- Reduced pace at which players complete content
- Increased overall difficulty (somewhat / depending on the penalty).
- Rare drops stay rarer for longer, as less people are potentially able to win initially.

There are a few more points in among the e-war but looking at them, they are fairly solid / equal points overall. Some more cater to the "casual" player and others the "hardcore", but overall they affect everyone.

So what if we were to drag those shiny bits from each side of the discussion out, we would probably come up with something like-
- Re-implement dungeon timers (Potentially a happy medium of 3-4 hours capped, to prevent people pitching tents overnight, while allowing players to attempt the final boss numerous times)
- Inability to change jobs/classes in an instance (Not sure about this as I wasn't in alpha, however this will force people to leave for repairs eventually).
- "Trash" mobs repop after 1hr or so.
- A slightly harsher initial weakness effect. Potentially a 25% increase in recast times (or similar) and a "slow" effect on auto-attack. (Brink of death is fine as-is).

I can understand why people are against EXP loss, and after further examination of the way the game works, it probably wouldn't realistically fit. However as mentioned much earlier in my replies I do feel that the death penalty doesn't have any form of impact. It shouldn't be too harsh, it shouldn't be too weak, but at the moment it is too weak in my opinion.

[fusional]

similar perspective to fusion's XIV experience

are you quite certain of that? yes, we both have done endgame in FFXIV, but the similarities end there.

Current problem with WoW and similar MMORPGs.

great post. thanks for linking. i just wish the devs would watch it, too.

[Altena]

are you quite certain of that? yes, we both have done endgame in FFXIV, but the similarities end there.

I believe we share a similar perspective but definitely have different opinions. Yes there is a difference. If you actually read my post, instead of picking out the first thing you disagree on, you would see that I make it quite obvious that perspective and opinion do not mean the same thing.

You have practically pasted your entire history on a billboard for everyone to see, yet I have not mentioned, and will not mention my history in any form of detail.

But yes, we share a similar perspective.

[fusional]

So what's the proper perspective?

depends on the example and the context. he referenced raiding history, so i explained why it matters in a specific context.

the proper perspective for that example, then, would be similar raiding experiences. but when one person has done something the other person hasn't, and the one person references what they've done as context for an argument- if the other person hasn't done the same thing or something similar it's quite foolish for them to comment unless their comments are purely hypothetical, and are labeled as such. and better yet- if they don't share the same experience or understanding, they should say as much and ask about it before commenting further.

because what good does it do to blindly argue something you haven't experienced and don't understand? based on what, exactly? based on what you heard someone else say (who also likely lacks experience and understanding)?

because that sums up about 90% of the anti-WoW and/or anti-hardcore comments on this forum.

and furthermore, you people are confusing opinion with perspective. they're not the same.

let's say you have an object. two people are viewing this same object, but one from further away. the person closest to the object picks it up, analyzes it, then tries to describe it. the person further away disagrees, describes it differently no matter what the first person says as he holds it in his hands.

so as you can see, perspective INFLUENCES opinion, but it isn't opinion. the person holding the object may incorrectly describe it, sure. his opinion of whether it has this or that quality may be wrong, sure. but by having a better perspective than the person further away, he is in a better position to have a more accurate opinion of it.

kind of like a guy stargazing with the naked eye trying to tell us what venus looks like, vs. a guy with a high-powered telescope.

and too often in history the guy with the telescope sees his descriptions of venus rejected by those looking on with a naked eye.

who would you rather ask about relativity? someone with a master's degree in physics, or someone who thumbed through a few pages in The Universe in a Nutshell? who has the better perspective? and which perspective has a higher likelihood of greater accuracy (in relation to opinion)?

If I had tried to state my opinion on what I think should be done about Ifrit nails, then my perspective would be pretty useless. I don't though, and likewise, you don't post in the lore threads (for example).

a great example, and entirely true. just as i'd be quick to throw my hat in on a conversation about pro football, but i wouldn't meddle in a discussion about hockey. it's about knowing your own strengths and weaknesses.

but people dying doesn't make them experts on the subject in a videogame, as it's not the same simply by virtue of the fact that we all die in the game at some point. if a casual player were to try some extraordinarily difficult solo leve, and die to it over and over and over again for several hours a day for days straight until they finally figure their own strategy with no outside help, no guides, just their own wits and button pressing skills- then yes, it would compare to my death experiences in progression content, and yes they would have similar perspective to me on the issue.

but that's not really the case, is it? how much of the population do you think shares the sort of experience i have with new content every patch? so then do we really have the same perspective?

not at all.

and yet, i have also experienced nearly all of the casual content in this game.

do you see where i'm going with this?

It is possible for two people to exchange dialogue about an idea even if their notions/perspectives are different. It will only result in a pointless back-and-forth if neither person can admit the validity of the other's perspective.

it is, yes. but if you'll notice, it's exceedingly common for more casual players in this forum to overstep their boundaries and try to act as expert witnesses about things they have little to no experience in. so it isn't just that their notions/perspectives are different. attempting to say the two perspectives are equivalent in that case simply because both parties *have* their own perspective is ridiculous.

i'm fine with admitting the validity of someone's perspective as long as their perspective is actually valid. it does happen sometimes. just... rarely. maybe it would happen more often if the forum didn't have such an ugly knee-jerk reaction any time you bring up warcraft or endgame.

An intelligent response to the thread could have been:

i absolutely agree, that would have been a good (and/or better) way to respond to the thread. but, as you can see, people on this forum can very easily annoy me when they talk about things they don't really understand :3