[suggestion] The next *grandiose* chapters of the main scenario quest

[Betelgeuzah]

Because the protagonist of this game is as flat and boring as a brick wall and is the true weak point of the storyline?

He is a bystander, just like you in any other FF game. Watching the events unfold. It's like the cameraman come live. And that is perfectly fine, as in this game there are no "heroes". If there are, they are chosen by the community, not the game. Potentially millions of heroes, tens of thousands of them on the same server, same linkshell? Yeah....

There will always be choices you don't agree with, and the less customization, the more there will be.

The less choices they have to make, the less choices you don't agree with. Having two predetermined choices is no better, especially since for the sake of continuity the end result is always the same.

No, an impersonal personality that fits *none* and has absolutely no redeeming point that.

It fits *everyone* as it is made so that it doesn't interfere with your own personality.

That's what a Final Fantasy game is all about, and it's been about that even in FFXI. Again, you got the wrong game, I'm afraid. This game will be ALWAYS story driven.

This is not just *any other* FINAL FANTASY game. This is a FINAL FANTASY *MMORPG*. And it should be considered as such. Not *any other* FINAL FANTASY game, because it isn't.

You know that budgets can be increased, and teams can be expanded in order to offer a better product? Mind you, that's what they ACTUALLY did when they reshuffled the team. They added new heads in.

Then why haven't they been increased already? I bet you 50 bucks if they could increase the budget, they would. Why the hell not? They are always working at the maximum possible efficiency because that's what it takes to get this game up and ready. They can't just pull more resources out of their ass.

Most people play games to "be the hero", not to watch someone else be the hero.

In most games you are the only living person in it. MMORPG's =/= single player games. Everyone is a hero = no one is a hero. The point of being a hero is to be one of the few, not have hundreds of other "heroes" surround you at any given time. That's a parody, nothing more.

[Abriael]

He is a bystander, just like you in any other FF game. Watching the events unfold. It's like the cameraman come live. And that is perfectly fine, as in this game there are no "heroes". If there are, they are chosen by the community, not the game. Potentially millions of heroes, tens of thousands of them on the same server, same linkshell? Yeah....

Sorry, but you may not have noticed the complaints people expressed in other threads about the main quests. People want to play the hero in gaming, not the "bystander" (which is, by the way, the same complaint people thrown at White Knight Chronicles, that had a similar playable sidekick, and in fact Level 5 expanded his role a lot in WKC2). A compelling main character is *THE* first step to create a successful game. In any genre that doesn't exclude story completely.

The less choices they have to make, the less choices you don't agree with. Having two predetermined choices is no better, especially since for the sake of continuity the end result is always the same.

You seem you have lost the meaning of choice. The only choice I'm talking about is an *initial* choice of personality for your character.
You chose your personality -> There's many less chances that the character will behave in a way you dislike.
It's not a matter of branching story. It's a matter of basic behavioir.

It fits *everyone* as it is made so that it doesn't interfere with your own personality.

There's no way for it not to interfere. The character is there, and he DOES have a behavioir, as flat as it can be (and most of the time flat means nonsensical in a situation that doesn't warrant a flat behavioir). The only way to achieve what you say in any decent way is for the character not to appear AT ALL, and to play only in first person (like it happens in the Ace Combat series).
But he's there, and he behaves like a brainless idiot by most standards.

This is not just *any other* FINAL FANTASY game. This is a FINAL FANTASY *MMORPG*. And it should be considered as such. Not *any other* FINAL FANTASY game, because it isn't.

You need to be made aware that a MMORPG is a game. So yeah, a Final Fantasy MMORPG is a Final Fantasy GAME.

Then why haven't they been increased already? I bet you 50 bucks if they could increase the budget, they would. Why the hell not? They are always working at the maximum possible efficiency because that's what it takes to get this game up and ready. They can't just pull more resources out of their ass.

They have indeed increased the team quite considerably, announcing it publicly on top of it. There haven't been any layoffs to our knowledge, so yeah, they already did it. And the current storyline quests have been worked on by the OLD team, before the team was strenghtened.

In most games you are the only living person in it. MMORPG's =/= single player games. Everyone is a hero = no one is a hero. The point of being a hero is to be one of the few, not have hundreds of other "heroes" surround you at any given time. That's a parody, nothing more.

The story both in FFXI and in FFXIV is seen *always* from a single player point of view, the "hundreds of other heroes" don't exist while you play the main storyline. You're the one that kills the shadowlord, you're the one that kills the crazed gobbue at the beginning of the ul'dah storyline, and so forth. There's *no way* to conciliate the main storyline of BOTH games with the existance of "hundreds" (more hundreds of thousands) of other "heroes" that do exactly the same thing.

The only way to do that is simply separate the storyline in each player's own little world, where only he exists. In that there's absolutely no difference with single player games.

[Betelgeuzah]

Sorry, but you may not have noticed the complaints people expressed in other threads about the main quests.

The missions have lot of problems that need to be taken care of, "not being the hero" is not one of them. When everyone is a hero, no one is a hero. And you can still feel like your own personal hero for beating a tough encounter for example.

You seem you have lost the meaning of choice. The only choice I'm talking about is an *initial* choice of personality for your character.
You chose your personality -> There's many less chances that the character will behave in a way you dislike.
It's not a matter of branching story. It's a matter of basic behavioir.

And you seem to forget that unlike the FF games often lead us to believe, our personalities are not black-and-white and written in stone. Even if you can choose your personality, that doesn't mean your character is going to act like you do all the time. The more personal you make him, the less likely it is that he resembles your unique personality. We can not be classified by something as silly as horoscopes that categorize us. We are more complex than that, and that is something games can not imitate. I was going off by the assumption that we can choose on a decision-basis instead of having one personality that carries over the whole game, as I didn't think you could seriously suggest something like that.

There's no way for it not to interfere.

There is a way to make him interfere as little as possible. You are not going to get over the fact that he is not going to act like you want him to act if the developers don't implement hundred different choices for every single situation.

You need to be made aware that a MMORPG is a game. So yeah, a Final Fantasy MMORPG is a Final Fantasy GAME.

So essentially FFX is an MMORPG, because it is a GAME. Yeah, we sure should not make any differentiation between the two because ~there is no difference~. That's what you are basically saying, and I am laughing my ass off here because of it. Damn you.

I can see that you basically want to ignore the differences between the two, because FIANL FANTSY TRADISHUN. This game's premise is that it's not a traditional FINAL FANTASY, that's what you seem to have trouble dealing with. Unless you live in denial where single player games and MMORPG's have no differences between each other.

They have indeed increased the team quite considerably, announcing it publicly on top of it. There haven't been any layoffs to our knowledge, so yeah, they already did it. And the current storyline quests have been worked on by the OLD team, before the team was strenghtened.

And it seems that due to this the story missions have been given even less emphasis to make room for the more important things they need to deal with. So essentially your precious feature is getting even less attention that it got before. Tanaka's plan had story missions coming along with everything else. Yoshida releases them "after everything else is done". The budget didn't increase to make the story better, because it is fine as-is- it was done to get this game up to par, and that doesn't mean giving us an artificial poor choice during the cutscenes, sorry.

The story both in FFXI and in FFXIV is seen *always* from a single player point of view, the "hundreds of other heroes" don't exist while you play the main storyline.

Actually, it's the main protagonists that do the work even if you actually get to fight the boss with your party. At the end of the fight it looks like you were just a sidekick along with everyone else. The NPC protagonists are in the limelight, you simply may do a hit or two with your clunky predetermined attack animations.

You are not the hero. The NPC's are. You are simply tagging along. And those NPC's are the same -for everyone-.

[Abriael]

The missions have lot of problems that need to be taken care of, "not being the hero" is not one of them. When everyone is a hero, no one is a hero. And you can still feel like your own personal hero for beating a tough encounter for example.

Actually the "not being the hero" is the main point of criticism you can find about the story if you take a few minutes to read the threads about it. Almost no one plays games to be the sidekick. That's all there's to it.
You're quite obviously in an overwhelmed minority.

And you seem to forget that unlike the FF games often lead us to believe, our personalities are not black-and-white and written in stone. Even if you can choose your personality, that doesn't mean your character is going to act like you do all the time. The more personal you make him, the less likely it is that he resembles your unique personality.

LOL. Sorry but Saying that a completely flat personality that perfectly fit the stereotype of the "completely dumb random dude" fits more anyone's ideal personality than predefined personalities that person can chose between is absolutely ridiculous.

There is a way to make him interfere as little as possible. You are not going to get over the fact that he is not going to act like you want him to act if the developers don't implement hundred different choices for every single situation.

NOT ACTING is by itself an arbitrary choice, that, incidentally, in an *ADVENTURE ORIENTED* game discontents the most.

So essentially FFX is an MMORPG, because it is a GAME. Yeah, we sure should not make any differentiation between the two because ~there is no difference~. That's what you are basically saying, and I am laughing my ass off here because of it. Damn you.

I can see that you basically want to ignore the differences between the two, because FIANL FANTSY TRADISHUN. This game's premise is that it's not a traditional FINAL FANTASY, that's what you seem to have trouble dealing with. Unless you live in denial where single player games and MMORPG's have no differences between each other.

You may have missed that we're talking about the game's storyline, not it's gameplay. And as both FFXIV and FFXI demonstrated, the main storyline is no different than any single player RPG.

And it seems that due to this the story missions have been given even less emphasis to make room for the more important things they need to deal with. So essentially your precious feature is getting even less attention that it got before. Tanaka's plan had story missions coming along with everything else. Yoshida releases them "after everything else is done". The budget didn't increase to make the story better, because it is fine as-is- it was done to get this game up to par, and that doesn't mean giving us an artificial poor choice during the cutscenes, sorry.

Oh really? I didn't know you were an insider at square enix, knowing exactly what they increased the budget for. You should really stop throwing around your very personal assumptions as facts. It doesn't make for a very solid argument.

Actually, it's the main protagonists that do the work even if you actually get to fight the boss with your party. At the end of the fight it looks like you were just a sidekick along with everyone else. The NPC protagonists are in the limelight, you simply may do a hit or two with your clunky predetermined attack animations.

You are not the hero. The NPC's are. You are simply tagging along. And those NPC's are the same -for everyone-.

And that's exactly the weak spot in your tirade. The fact that those NPCs are the same -for everyone- means that the storyline is seen exactly as a single player game, in which the -everyone else-simply doesn't exist. This means that there's absolutely no obstacle to depicting the player character the hero. Which is what basically everyone wants, as several threads on the topic demonstrated.

But do go on arguing on and on and on. It's quite amusing to see that someone thinks that making the player a mere sidekick with no clear role and zero personality is actually more conductive to fun and enjoyment than making him the hero.
It's funny especially because it goes against the simplest and most basic concepts of gaming, that are deeply rooted in making the player identify with the hero of a story.

[Mack]

This is an MMORPG, it is ridiculous to make it so that everyone is the "main protagonist".

Why? I was the main protagonist in FFXI, weren't you? or did you forget? Its not impossible at all.

[Abriael]

Why? I was the main protagonist in FFXI, weren't you? or did you forget? Its not impossible at all.

Exactly. Moreover there's nothing nothing more "ridiculous" in having everyone be the "main protagonist" in his own storyline, than in having thousands of people play exactly the same role, talking exactly to the same NPCs, saying exactly the same things, fighting exactly the same monsters in the same way as it already happens.

The main story is already structured as a single player "instance" inside the MMORPG. So there's absolutely no obstacle to having the player impersonate the protagonist of the story.

[RemnantWolf]

Honestly I can see both sides of this argument. You can't make the player a Zelda style "hero of time" type character where they are the only hope because they are prewriten to become the savior. Yet we do need to be more involved. They need to take the characters from the "just passing by" character to the "This battle would have been lost without your efforts" character. If I get to rank 50 I should be more than just a "cannon fodder" player in the story. But you should never be the Main hero because then everyone is said "hero of time" character. Make your character seem like a crucial part of something bigger (something that you can envision all the payers being part of) and it gives you your epic without ignoring that you are one of many.
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I think the idea of adding character attitude is good and bad. Good because I don't like my character being an empty shell. But the idea of dialog options means that people who don't want to be a preset identity can't truly express themselves.

There are some solutions though. One is close to what we have now and it is basically just an improvement of what they have done. The silent protagonist. Sure they don't speak but you get who they are from facial expressions. Look at zelda (I seem to be using this as an example a lot) Link has a lot of personality and comes off as a convincing player and yet is identifiable with everyone as he is left just open enough to be anyone. They just need to work with the player characters more during the creation of stories more in the future to make them more emotional and accessible.

The other plan (which I doubt they would take but I will post it anyway to see what people think) is for you to make the dialog. Either add some minimal (though effective) voice recognition to the system (or just typing) to the stories.
Here is an example of how it works.
You get a quest to save a little girl (once again just an example) and someone looks to you and says "what are we going to do?" you then get a dialog option of good or evil. You could click on your answer to choose (for the RP haters) or you choose your response by saying (or typing) your response. and the system is set to give you a phrase to say for each option. So to pick good option you say "save the girl" or to go with the evil response you say "kill the kidnappers" or both for a neutral response. The system then picks up the "keywords" and makes the NPCs respond appropriately. They could also add a volume measure or pitch measure to monitor how much emotion you are trying to put in your character so that he/she animates to how you are acting, so you even look the part of an over hyper nut, or cool headed tactician. That way you get to choose your character's attitude and you get the exact personalty you want.
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The romance options would be interesting. But you left out an important part, Players being love interest. Betelgeuzah was right to say that a lot of the story of an MMO comes from the players and it should stay that way but he seems to overlook that the set story could ENHANCE that. If some lucky son of a ----- manages to get his girlfriend or wife to play as well wouldn't it be ideal for their characters to fall in love (with high quality, emotion filled cutscenes?) Or if two people RP as lovers could a story line not give that love a good story background? This could be extended to other roles like rivals, or best friends. I say the more players you allow to get involved with your story the more it enhances the RPing and community. Oh and leave it open for using NPCs some people may like this but not want to use their friends to RP it and may be single.

[Abriael]

Honestly I can see both sides of this argument. You can't make the player a Zelda style "hero of time" type character where they are the only hope because they are prewriten to become the savior. Yet we do need to be more involved. They need to take the characters from the "just passing by" character to the "This battle would have been lost without your efforts" character. If I get to rank 50 I should be more than just a "cannon fodder" player in the story. But you should never be the Main hero because then everyone is said "hero of time" character. Make your character seem like a crucial part of something bigger (something that you can envision all the payers being part of) and it gives you your epic without ignoring that you are one of many.

The problem is that the story is already seen from a single player perspective. You're already talking with the same NPCs as everyone else, doing the same things as everyone else, creating an obvious single player paradox, since it's impossible for everyone to perform exactly the same actions with NPCs that respond exactly in the same way, and still keep a coherent story out of the assumption that all of that happens in the same "world".

So basically now we already have a strictly single player storyline, in which the character still is rather inconsequential to that storyline, making for a rather weird hybrid.

Since it's already single player, we may as well make the main character the "hero of time" (or at least one of the heroes, since there are plenty NPCs that cover that role too), since in his personal version of the storyline, the other candidate "heroes of time" don't exist already.

The problem with dialog options is that they are rather meaningless unless they have an actual branhing effect on the story.
Personally, I'd rather have a more "beefy" story, then a branching one of which you see only a part, especially in a game that isn't exactly raplay-friendly.

I'd be ok with character communication expresseed just from expressions, but it does make the character quite a bit flatter, so I'd rather have dialog that reflects a chosen personality (while not changing in effect), pretty much like what the current path companions have.
I honestly find Link a very flat and unenjoyable character exactly because of that

The romance options would be interesting. But you left out an important part, Players being love interest. Betelgeuzah was right to say that a lot of the story of an MMO comes from the players and it should stay that way but he seems to overlook that the set story could ENHANCE that. If some lucky son of a ----- manages to get his girlfriend or wife to play as well wouldn't it be ideal for their characters to fall in love (with high quality, emotion filled cutscenes?) Or if two people RP as lovers could a story line not give that love a good story background? This could be extended to other roles like rivals, or best friends. I say the more players you allow to get involved with your story the more it enhances the RPing and community. Oh and leave it open for using NPCs some people may like this but not want to use their friends to RP it and may be single.

This is an interesting idea. I'm currently one of the "lucky sons of a -----", so I would enjoy that. Though I'm not sure about the ease of implementation. If it was possible, and if it would be an option on the side of NPC romance (as many aren't "lucky sons, etc", or don't necesarily roleplay lovers in game with their other halves), I'd be all for it.

Though, I would say that NPC romance would be the basics, and adding a "player spouse" system would be something to add on top of it.

[Mudd]

These are all horrible suggestions.

This is an MMORPG, it is ridiculous to make it so that everyone is the "main protagonist". In Rift it was incredibly silly to listen to the NPC's talking about me being the only person capable of saving the world, and when I look around, there are dozens and hundreds of other people "saving the world". Unlike in those other games that ignore the community aspect completely, XIV makes you look like an ordinary adventurer like the rest of them, capable of doing impressive things- but not by himself. You simply happen to come across these events that change Eorzea and shift the tide of the future, just like anyone could. We are all witnessing these events, and that should be reflected in our position in the storyline- as bystanders and side-kicks for the major protagonists that are universal to everyone.

Further, we are the protagonists of our own story, that is built by interacting with other people in the world and making non-premade choices that affect our standing in the community. Scheming, love, fighting, everything is possible between human beings. MMORPG's are the place to be a part of this kind of storytelling. Our personal stories are always unique. There is no need for silly interaction between NPC's and us- they should be in place to make history through major and minor events while shaping the world around us, we already take care of the interaction by ourselves. Even here we have linkshells competing and declaring themselves enemies to each other. The content simply needs to support this kind of "rivalry" or alliance.

Choosing a personality for our own "alter-ego" does not make sense either. We are what we make ourselves through interaction. In the end the cutscene-me and the gameplay-me may be completely different, or the cutscene-me may make choices I wouldn't agree with. These characters are the representations of us in the game world. There is a reason why Gordon Freeman does not speak a line in Half Life. You are not simply watching events unfold from a third person while playing a predetermined character, your character represents you in everything that happens on the game. Whether you like it or not, everything you do in-game is the outcome of the choices you've made.

Crafters and gatherers can be given a supporting role in the storyline. They can buff, debuff, deal damage through digging up throwable objects or building cannons and so on.

I agree..
Came off a bit strong, but got your point across nice and clear.

[KoontaKintay]

so.. who got to pee further?