[suggestion] The next *grandiose* chapters of the main scenario quest

[Abriael]

While the current chapters of the main scenario quest are good and fun (maybe a little too diluted, I would condense them between rank 1 and 35 and add 3-4 chapters before 50, giving a partial closure there, comparable to the fall of the shadowlord in FFXI, and maybe addding further chapters from 50 onwards when an higher level cap comes, following some major plot twist that reveals new enemies and bigger threats, which is very final-fantasy-ish), I think that as the level (and power of the character) increase, the story needs a bit of an evolution that I would summarize in the following points:

1) The player character needs to become the "protagonist".
At lower ranks it's ok that the main character has a more "bystander-ish" role, because he's a sprat that still has to grow wings and earn his place in the world, learning from more experienced adventurers. But as level nears the cap (and/or goes beyond the first caps), the wings should be earned and the sprat should have been grown from a sidekick into "the boss". I understand that the "player" being the silent sidekick (a la White Knight Story) is much easier to implement, but everyone is playing to be the protagonist of his game, and especially at the highest level, being the sidekick of the path companion or of the main city NPC is much less exciting than it could be if the player was the actual protagonist, playing the strongest role in the story. Conversely, the path companion and the main city NPCs should become his sidekicks.

2) (related to 1) Give the player character more screen time and more "personality"
At the moment, given the sidekick role, the player character is a "silent, one size-fits-all" kind of person. The result of this is that he gets very little screen time, and he has no personality.
While this is ok for now, it won't be ok anymore as his role in the story grows.
First of all, he should talk. The fact that the character doesn't talk (other than a couple choice lines) is good for anyone to imagine the personality he prefers behind his silent face, but ends up limiting his role a lot.

Of course, with a talking "hero", there must be a choice, for the player, to chose his personality. This can be given through branching dialogue choices (which tends to be overcomplicated with this kind of storytelling), or simply by giving the player, at character creation, the ability to chose a personality for his character (pretty much like the personalities of the path companion). This way a degree of customization and chloice would be present without overcomplicating everything with branching choices.
The personality trait should also be changeable whenever the player wants (people change, after all, and one may realize that he doesn't like the personality he chosen at first).

3) More epic scale:
The main character is now not a sprat anymore, has learned his wings and assumed the lead role he deserves. It's time for the epics to come.
-Let him fight big monsters (alone of with a group, maybe giving a choice), and enemies.
-Let him pilot airships and shot down those of the enemy.
-Let him meet the rulers of Eorzea (this is normally quite a topical step in creating a sensation of epic accomplishment), and earn their gratitude and friendship.
-Let him even lead epic field battles as a general or commander (no, i'm not talking about some RTS-ish gameplay, just cutscenes with staged fights in between),or at least take part in them.
-Let him be the hero saving the day. In the current rank 46 quest, the main character is completely powerless, and get his rear saved by others. In future quests it should be the opposite. He should get to rescue people and save the day himself. Maybe even get the path companion captured, and send our hero on a complex mission to save him/her (and this can easily be part of the expansion of the path companion role that I advocated long ago in this thread: linky)
-Generally speaking, let him be the bigshot he deserves to be. After all, we grind a lot to see every coming cutscene, and as our level grows, our power to "influence" the world around us should grow with it, instead of playing a bystander role.

4) More fighting, less talking. Or actually, keep the talking, but add more fighting
I understand that SE wanted to involve crafters/gatherers into the storyline as much as possible, but IMHO this can work only at low levels. It's fairly unrealistic to think that someone will really play ONLY a creafter/gatherer for his whole career as a FFXIV player, without leveling his warring classes *at all*.
If the problem is high level crafter accessing advanced quests while their warrior classes are lower level, it can be adressed with a level scaling mechanic. If the current rank of the class "worn" by the player as he enters a story fight is lower than that of the quest itself, then the content difficulty should scale down accordingly, providing a doable fight even if someone is mainly a crafter. IE: if a crafter is rank 46 blacksmith and accesses the rank 46 quest as a rank 20 gladiator, the enemies should scale down to be doable (but challenging) at rank 20.

5) Expand parley and change it's role
I enjoy parley a LOT. I think it's a very nice minigame, and I think it should definitely be kept in the game. The problem is that the moment in the main story it becomes just a less desirable alternative to fighting instead of having it's own role.
In my opinion, in future quests, instead of being relegated just as an alternative to a brawl for casters, it should have it's own story moments as the main hero pursues negotiation and discussions with NPCs, completely separate from battle moments, even if the player is playing a warring class. Brain or Brawn shouldn't *always* be an alternative, and having the character pursue different solutions at different times adds depth to his role, and variation to the fun.
I would also graphically enhance parley. At the moment it definitely looks like an afterthought, with the game engine using equipment icons to represent arguments and a rather lackluster UI. I would redesign the UI to be graphically more appealing, and I would create custom art for the arguments (pretty much like previous card/puzzle games in previous Final Fantasy games). Final Fantasy has always been great for it's art style. Parley should definitely fit that standard.

6) Make the main hero EVOLVE
As part of the transformation of the main character from a sprat to a hero, he should also undergo a strong process of growth. The cycle of fall/growth should be dramatic and emotional, as the character encounters harship and manages to overcome them to become stronger emotionally, and not just physically. Who can forget the strong emotions felt when Cecil became a paladin in Final Fantasy IV? What about the evolution that turned Cloud from a cold killer into a true hero?
This is the main storyline of a Final Fantasy game. Character evolution and growth are needed to create emotions. A final Fantasy game that can't stir strong emotions (and this could actually be a point in itself: Make the story more emotionally engaging) can really be defined a true Final Fantasy game?
This is one of the main point of criticism a big part of the fanbase brought to bear on Final Fantasy XII and XIII. Time to adress it, isn't it?

7) Romance. Yoshida-san, we seriously need some romance. Dare say, can we have romance? Romance is the spice of life!
In earlier final fantasy games romance always played a solid, important role in the plot and character development. Unfortunately Square Enix decided to move away from romance in single player Final Fantasy games from XII onwards, and IMHO, that was a very, very bad choice. Characters had a much lower degree of growth and development, and in the end the story was quite a lot duller than before. The funny part is that Japanese developers has always been the masters of romance in storytelling, and while Square Enix alienated part of their fanbase by removing or drastically reducing romance in Final Fantasy, western developers like Bioware embraced romance more and more, gathering the "romantic refugees" from the Final Fantasy fanbase under their wing, and earning truckloads of money in the process.

I say it's time to go back to the origins, look back a little please.
Who will ever forget the Opera scene in Final Fantasy IV? What would Final Fantasy be, now, without the famous final fantasy romances between Cecil and Rosa, Rydia and Edge, Cloud and Aeris/Tifa, Squall And Rinoa, Tidus and Yuna, Locke and Celes and others? Probably an half-forgotten secondary series.
It can be scientifically observed: Every Final Fantasy that had a lower or even worse, non-existant, romance component has been much less successful and memorable.

Final Fantasy XIV is even more a perfect chance to go back to the origins and rediscover romance in the Final Fantasy series. Why is that? Because no other MMORPG has that component. Offering something unique in the market is an extremely good way to bring back part of the lost playerbase and attract new players.

But how could it be implemented?
-The "target" of the romance should probably the the path companion as partly explained in this thread: linky. This allows players to chose their own romantic interest and to partly customize it, allowing for an higher emotional engagement, as pre-determined characters could not always be of the player's liking.
Adding romantic interests between non-playable NPCs is also possible, but this could be a little less effective, as it would probably require adding numerous romanceable NPCs in order to give the player a degree of choice.
Also, creating a customizable romanceable NPC in addition to the path companion could be possible, but personally I wouls just condense the role on the path companion, since the system is already in place and is in dire need of an expansion.

-It should be optional: while I'm 100% sure that it would be a massively popular feature, I'm pretty sure that some might not be interested. Make romance optional, as it's optional, for instance, in Bioware games. Let the player decide, during quests, if they want to pursue a romantic engagement with the chosen NPC or he/she wants to stay friends. An "affinity" gauge with (limited) gameplay effects could even be implemented, giving different results (mostly during the story, and could easily be limited in impact to a splitting of the NPC lines and a few emotes/cutscenes, as not to make it too work-intensive, but the possibilities are endless depending on how much SE wants to work on it and make it engaging) depending on how much the gauge leans towards a strong "love" or a strong "friendship".

-It should be visible: the lines of the romanceable character should be changed depending on the option of being a friend or a lover (I doubt it's too much of an effort to write certain lines for each path companion personality twice, for instance, it doesn't even need to be for ALL the lines, but only for the important ones), and some degree of animated affection should happen. And no, I'm not talking about "hot" scenes like in Mass Effect 1 and 2. A kiss under the moonlight in a topical story moment (maybe before a particularly difficult battle) never killed anyone, and won't change the rating of the game from T to M On the contrary, it would raise the emotional gauge to unprecedented levels in the MMORPG market.
Besides, the moonlight in FFXIV looks great, let us bask in it

Of course, this is all IMHO, and if you made it this far through the wall of text, I thank you for your attention (whether you're a dev or not), comments and possible support

To conclude, the time of "hero internship" was fun. I enjoyed it throughly, but it's time to graduate. Let the next chapters of the main story be *grandiose*, epic, and heart-ripping emotional like a true Final Fantasy game should be!

[Betelgeuzah]

These are all horrible suggestions.

This is an MMORPG, it is ridiculous to make it so that everyone is the "main protagonist". In Rift it was incredibly silly to listen to the NPC's talking about me being the only person capable of saving the world, and when I look around, there are dozens and hundreds of other people "saving the world". Unlike in those other games that ignore the community aspect completely, XIV makes you look like an ordinary adventurer like the rest of them, capable of doing impressive things- but not by himself. You simply happen to come across these events that change Eorzea and shift the tide of the future, just like anyone could. We are all witnessing these events, and that should be reflected in our position in the storyline- as bystanders and side-kicks for the major protagonists that are universal to everyone.

Further, we are the protagonists of our own story, that is built by interacting with other people in the world and making non-premade choices that affect our standing in the community. Scheming, love, fighting, everything is possible between human beings. MMORPG's are the place to be a part of this kind of storytelling. Our personal stories are always unique. There is no need for silly interaction between NPC's and us- they should be in place to make history through major and minor events while shaping the world around us, we already take care of the interaction by ourselves. Even here we have linkshells competing and declaring themselves enemies to each other. The content simply needs to support this kind of "rivalry" or alliance.

Choosing a personality for our own "alter-ego" does not make sense either. We are what we make ourselves through interaction. In the end the cutscene-me and the gameplay-me may be completely different, or the cutscene-me may make choices I wouldn't agree with. These characters are the representations of us in the game world. There is a reason why Gordon Freeman does not speak a line in Half Life. You are not simply watching events unfold from a third person while playing a predetermined character, your character represents you in everything that happens on the game. Whether you like it or not, everything you do in-game is the outcome of the choices you've made.

Crafters and gatherers can be given a supporting role in the storyline. They can buff, debuff, deal damage through digging up throwable objects or building cannons and so on.

This thread disgusts me. With these changes the only outcome is an offline MMORPG with less of everything that makes MMORPG's better and different from single player games.

[Abriael]

Woah, aren't you quite antagonistic.

This is not *a* MMORPG. This is a *FINAL FANTASY* MMORPG.

Final Fantasy games has always been strongly based on their stories and their characters, and on character progression. By your logic, the storyline quests shouldn't even exist, and the game should be a full sandbox in which people only create their own stories interacting with other live players, while never taking part in any kind of scripted-story-based content.
The character in ANY MMRPG makes choices you might not agree with as soon as you click on a NPC to enter any quest. Giving the player the choice to chose a personality for his character actually *reduces* the possibility that the player will behave in a way you would not agree with. Since you *chose* his personality yourself.
Of course it's a limited choice, but it's as near as it gets to making a choice without making a completely branching storyline that would be extremely complex to implement, and still not perfect (you cannot give infinite options, no matter how many you give).

Are you telling me that you are in agreement with all the choices your character made (without giving you any minimal chance to influence them, not even the way he behaves), during the current storyline quest?

This obviously isn't that kind of game. A story is in place, and the player is given no other choice than to follow it. Let at least be a *good* and emotionally engaging story. As per Final Fantasy tradition.

[Betelgeuzah]

Final Fantasy games has always been strongly based on their stories and their characters, and on character progression. By your logic, the storyline quests shouldn't even exist, and the game should be a full sandbox in which people only create their own stories interacting with other live players, while never taking part in any kind of scripted-story-based content.

By my logic, the part of the game that is superior in interactive storytelling should not be included in the part of the game that is superior in event-based storytelling. Why do we have NPC romance when we can have romance with other actual people? Why must we have dialog choices and pre-made personalities when our interaction, choices and personalities are totally and utterly superior to the NPC interaction in every single way (except maybe grammar)?

This is not just *any other* FINAL FANTASY game. This is a FINAL FANTASY *MMORPG*.

Of course it's a limited choice, but it's as near as it gets to making a choice without making a completely branching storyline that would be extremely complex to implement, and still not perfect (you cannot give infinite options, no matter how many you give).

We have that already. Our own storyline that we shape ourselves. Are you even listening? Why should they try to make a completely inferior version of our story between the NPC's when something such beautiful and superior already exists and complements the pre-made story?

This obviously isn't that kind of game. A story is in place, and the player is given no other choice than to follow it. Let at least be a *good* and emotionally engaging story. As per Final Fantasy tradition.

I don't know about you, but my story in FFXI was *good* and emotionally engaging. So much so that very few games based on interaction between NPC's can come close to it. And the premade storyline that shaped the world in XI complemented my own. There was no need for trying to remake something that can not be remade without interaction with real people. XI gave me everything a good story can give someone, and this game will do no worse.

[Abriael]

By my logic, the part of the game that is superior in interactive storytelling should not be included in the part of the game that is superior in event-based storytelling. Why do we have NPC romance when we can have romance with other actual people? Why must we have dialog choices and pre-made personalities when our interaction, choices and personalities are totally and utterly superior to the NPC interaction in every single way (except maybe grammar)?

Why do we need a flat storyline with no emotional engagement when we could have BOTH a flat storyline with emotional engagement and storytelling AND our storylines based on interaction with other characters?
One doesn't exclude the others. The current storyline already limits you if you want to keep it in account. The character (as flat as he is) already takes decisions on his own, and has behaviors of his own, that the player may not agree with. I found myself disagreeing quite a few times with his behavioir, and if you found yourself in agreement 100% of the time, you've just been lucky.
Giving a choice in personalities would actually *increase* the compatibility of the main story with personal storylines built with other people.

This is not just *any other* FINAL FANTASY game. This is a FINAL FANTASY *MMORPG*.

Which is quite obviously different from other MORPGs, given the importance it gives to storytelling.

We have that already. Our own storyline that we shape ourselves. Are you even listening? Why should they try to make a completely inferior version of our story between the NPC's when something such beautiful and superior already exists and complements the pre-made story?

There's absolutely no reason why we can't have both. Especially considering that we *already* have both. The scripted storyline simply could be a *lot* better than what it is now.

Having a scripted storyline that's engaging, character-driven and emotioally deep doesn't in any way interfere with your freedom of creating your own.

[snowstriker]

Honestly the only valid point IMO is giving us more screen time and making us feel less like a bystander. FFXI started out with giving us a bystander role but by ToAU and WotG I saw my character actively step in and intercept an NPC about to get hit, and run to protect people. Like if he wasn't there then I actually felt like they'd fail or die, unlike in vanilla FFXI where sometimes it's like you don't even exist.

I don't think FFXIV has been doing too terribly though in the story cutscenes (not done though so)

[Betelgeuzah]

Why do we need a flat storyline with no emotional engagement when we could have BOTH a flat storyline with emotional engagement and storytelling AND our storylines based on interaction with other characters?
One doesn't exclude the others.

I'm saying there is absolutely no point to it and it's a waste of time, not to mention shows that the developers have their priorities completely wrong. They should be encouraging interaction between players, not interaction between NPC's. Interaction has nothing to do with emotional engagement either. No FF game thus far has had any sort of interaction between you and the NPC's. You have always been the bystander, yet the story has been emotionally engaging regardless. That's the FINAL FANTASY tradition.

The current storyline already limits you if you want to keep it in account. The character (as flat as he is) already takes decisions on his own, and has behaviors of his own, that the player may not agree with. I found myself disagreeing quite a few times with his behavioir, and if you found yourself in agreement 100% of the time, you've just been lucky.

It's so few and far between that it's completely irrelevant. They better keep that in check though.

Giving a choice in personalities would actually *increase* the compatibility of the main story with personal storylines built with other people.

No it wouldn't, because the premade personalities =/= your own personality. That's a damn given.

Which is quite obviously different from other MORPGs, given the importance it gives to storytelling.

Yes. Not just event-based storytelling, but interaction between human beings.

There's absolutely no reason why we can't have both. Especially considering that we *already* have both. The scripted storyline simply could be a *lot* better than what it is now.

You add something to it, you take something away from it. This is not a case of "they could do it if they felt like it". It's a case of "we have X number of resources to spend on this feature, and we need to choose what we want to do with it." And to be frank, I don't want them to lower the quality of the quests just so I can insert an artificial "choice" to the story at pre-determined spots when something superior already exists for me.

Having a scripted storyline that's engaging, character-driven and emotioally deep doesn't in any way interfere with your freedom of creating your own.

And having a storyline that has no interaction does not in any way interfere with the story being engaging, character driven and emotionally deep. Unless you're saying that every movie, FF and other story-based single player games with no personal interaction ever made have not been engaging, character driven and emotionally deep.

[Abriael]

I'm saying there is absolutely no point to it and it's a waste of time, not to mention shows that the developers have their priorities completely wrong. They should be encouraging interaction between players, not interaction between NPC's. Interaction has nothing to do with emotional engagement either. No FF game thus far has had any sort of interaction between you and the NPC's. You have always been the bystander, yet the story has been emotionally engaging regardless. That's the FINAL FANTASY tradition.

Not really. In previous final fantasy games the bystander does *not* exist. The player simply identifies with the protagonist, and that's interaction.
And intraction has a LOT to do with emotional engagement.

It's so few and far between that it's completely irrelevant. They better keep that in check though.

Maybe for you, because you've been lucky. It may be irrelevant for you, it's not irrelevant for me.

No it wouldn't, because the premade personalities =/= your own personality. That's a damn given.

The character ALREADY has a premade personality, even if it's a damn flat one. That's *definitelly* =/= your own personality. Unless you have a flat personality, of course. Giving choices simply allows the player to give the character a personality more similar to theirs, or their one they want.

Yes. Not just event-based storytelling, but interaction between human beings.

Actually, you seem to have got the wrong game. This one definitely gives a LOT of importance to event-based storytelling already.

You add something to it, you take something away from it. This is not a case of "they could do it if they felt like it". It's a case of "we have X number of resources to spend on this feature, and we need to choose what we want to do with it." And to be frank, I don't want them to lower the quality of the quests just so I can insert an artificial "choice" to the story at pre-determined spots when something superior already exists for me.

Lower the quality of the quests? and where does this absolutely arbitrary statement comes from? More emotional engagement = higher quality of the quests. Seems a nobrainer to me.

And having a storyline that has no interaction does not in any way interfere with the story being engaging, character driven and emotionally deep. Unless you're saying that every movie, FF and other story-based single player games with no personal interaction ever made have not been engaging, character driven and emotionally deep.

They for sure are LESS engaging, character driven and emotionally deep. If there's less interaction between characters, quite obviously the plot is a lot more flat.

Again, you seem to think that having a good scripted story somehow inteferes with your ability to create your own with other people, while it obviously isn't so.

[Betelgeuzah]

Not really. In previous final fantasy games the bystander does *not* exist. The player simply identifies with the protagonist, and that's interaction.

Lol. The bystander most certainly exists, and it is you. What stops you from "identifying" with the protagonist of this game?

Maybe for you, because you've been lucky. It may be irrelevant for you, it's not irrelevant for me.

So they'd better make it even bigger part of the story and give you choices you won't agree with. Yay.

The character ALREADY has a premade personality, even if it's a damn flat one.

So basically an impersonal personality that is like a jack of all trades. As it should be.

Actually, you seem to have got the wrong game. This one definitely gives a LOT of importance to event-based storytelling already.

And if they do, that's what they are doing wrong. Because they are doing a bad job does not justify them keeping that up in the future as well.

Lower the quality of the quests? and where does this absolutely arbitrary statement comes from? More emotional engagement = higher quality of the quests. Seems a nobrainer to me.

The quests right now have done with the maximum amount of resources available to the team making said quests. If you want to add something to the quests, you have to take something away from them just the same, because all the resources are already in use right now. That is a nobrainer. Unless for some reason they simply feel like not putting their everything to the quests is completely acceptable.

They for sure are LESS engaging, character driven and emotionally deep. If there's less interaction between characters, quite obviously the plot is a lot more flat.

The protagonists so far have seemed good to me. Much better than in XI. There's interaction between characters that are not you, and that's the case in every movie and most single player games ever made.

[Abriael]

Lol. The bystander most certainly exists, and it is you. What stops you from "identifying" with the protagonist of this game?

Because the protagonist of this game is as flat and boring as a brick wall and is the true weak point of the storyline?

So they'd better make it even bigger part of the story and give you choices you won't agree with. Yay.

There will always be choices you don't agree with, and the less customization, the more there will be.

So basically an impersonal personality that is like a jack of all trades. As it should be.

No, an impersonal personality that fits *none* and has absolutely no redeeming point that.

And if they do, that's what they are doing wrong. Because they are doing a bad job does not justify them keeping that up in the future as well.

That's what a Final Fantasy game is all about, and it's been about that even in FFXI. Again, you got the wrong game, I'm afraid. This game will be ALWAYS story driven.

The quests right now have done with the maximum amount of resources available to the team making said quests. If you want to add something to the quests, you have to take something away from them just the same, because all the resources are already in use right now. That is a nobrainer. Unless for some reason they simply feel like not putting their everything to the quests is completely acceptable.

You know that budgets can be increased, and teams can be expanded in order to offer a better product? Mind you, that's what they ACTUALLY did when they reshuffled the team. They added new heads in.

The protagonists so far have seemed good to me. Much better than in XI. There's interaction between characters that are not you, and that's the case in every movie and most single player games ever made.

Most people play games to "be the hero", not to watch someone else be the hero.