A Little Pain with my Pleasure

[Niqote]

It was discussed. And it was beaten to death with many 'go play XI's' and 'I don't have time for that crap' like comments that the topic learned not to rear its ugly head again... yet here we are XD

[Klive]

I know I'm late to this party but...

hasn't this topic been covered...

A LOT

if this topic was dead horse, the horse would be glue by now.



So let the this topic die. Think of the children!

[Jynx]

You know as much as the topic has been discussed I don't see why people are so keen on killing the conversation.

Asides from the blatant response like "Go back to XI" or "lol-massocists" It's still interesting to see what kind of opinion or option people would like to see. I mean it's not like the forums are abuzz with more important topics right now either...

[Feln]

I like the idea of (others) suffering for being inefficient and inexperienced. Makes victory and smart gameplay at least feel more rewarding. Victory is sweeter when failure is bitter.

[Ramesses]

This may have been discussed recently; I have not found a post lately though. Why not bring back the loss of experience with death. I know it was not a popular attribute to FFXI. It did do some interesting things to game play. People did not tolerate people not performing in parties. People would help you get better. Also that lovely delving sound. I know it hurt to loose experience. I would rather loose experience than paying to fix my gear. It also set FF apart from other games as I do not know of another that had the loss of exp. It is just one of those things I look back on and miss.

<---(Suddenly has vivid memories of the crazy PK-ing that used to occur at the Dunes and Khazam back in FFXI)

I understand where you are coming from but first of all, I think one of the elements of exp loss upon death was that it invited PK-ing on a level that kept the GMs busy for several days straight. Sheesh, Garlaige Citadel once got shut down for almost a whole day because some higher levels decided to PK everyone in sight all because they were competing for AF chests.

Also it must be said that back in 2004, leveling in FFXI was very difficult for the lower levels due to the exp loss penalty from dying... yes it made you aware of your mistakes and yes it honed your concentration in becoming a better player. But these days, there are several more efficient ways to teach people how to become better... and now voice chat has made that even easier.

The goal of any new MMO is to prevent new players from becoming frustrated with advancement... and in higher levels some jobs in FFXI actually had strategies required you to die often (kiting, tanking, sacrifice or suicide pulls, etc). So yeah, having experienced all that, I do NOT like that deleveling sound. Trust me, I lost enough exp to know that sound and hated it...I was a tank and COR puller for a good while back in FFXI. Need I say more?

So yeah... FFXI exp loss elements should stay right where they are... in Vanadiel

[Shurrikhan]

If we were actually building up experience on things even at max level, or building towards the next level past cap when at level cap as a sort of safety margin, then I'd be okay with it. But even then, it seems arbitrary--just another way to dole out punishment--without a premise. If the MMO were based on the world premise of FFX and we were all faith-born, and that penalty much more significant, it'd make sense. Without it, I'm left to wonder why the fruits of my learning/labor slipped off during the couple minutes I was dead before being resurrected by a party member.

Give the game an actual interesting play on Aether and world-premise, where memory, Echo, learning, manifestations, one's persona/mask, the elements and their personified primals, the cycle of destruction and rebirth that fuels Eorzea, the cycle of civilizations' knowledge of these eras before their time is up, the Archons, the unanswered and unasked questions concerning the dimensional shift, etc are all intertwined into one breathtaking world feel, then yeah, I'm sure this could fit and would be awesome.

But, 'til then...

[ispano]

<---(Suddenly has vivid memories of the crazy PK-ing that used to occur at the Dunes and Khazam back in FFXI)

I understand where you are coming from but first of all, I think one of the elements of exp loss upon death was that it invited PK-ing on a level that kept the GMs busy for several days straight. Sheesh, Garlaige Citadel once got shut down for almost a whole day because some higher levels decided to PK everyone in sight all because they were competing for AF chests.

Also it must be said that back in 2004, leveling in FFXI was very difficult for the lower levels due to the exp loss penalty from dying... yes it made you aware of your mistakes and yes it honed your concentration in becoming a better player. But these days, there are several more efficient ways to teach people how to become better... and now voice chat has made that even easier.

The goal of any new MMO is to prevent new players from becoming frustrated with advancement... and in higher levels some jobs in FFXI actually had strategies required you to die often (kiting, tanking, sacrifice or suicide pulls, etc). So yeah, having experienced all that, I do NOT like that deleveling sound. Trust me, I lost enough exp to know that sound and hated it...I was a tank and COR puller for a good while back in FFXI. Need I say more?

So yeah... FFXI exp loss elements should stay right where they are... in Vanadiel

Eh, Voice Chat tends to give certain people a crutch.

[Firon]

Xp loss made people in XI not wanna do anything that was not cookie cutter, people did not wanna explore or anything cause they didn't wanna lfg for x amount hours on certain jobs to get exp. Not every class in XI was omg brd sam or RDM get exp back so they didn't wanna lfg for hours to get exp back if they dlvled or to get a buffer it's a reason why pally always should have got R3 in XI.

[Ramesses]

Eh, Voice Chat tends to give certain people a crutch.

Nope... on the contrary... its not a crutch but a method to make people learn how to play better faster. Yeah, welcome to the new century of gaming.

Unless you have been playing with other annoying people who really don't give a bloody toss whether they are improving their skills or not, voice chat (in my personal experience) made it MUCH easier to coach people. The whole team will call you out on stuff very quickly, very harshly... and if you don't like it, then get better pronto pronto or log off. And you better believe that your invites to events will diminish very swiftly if you're not making efforts to improve.

The key element about improving skills on most games is ultimately about being very crucially efficient... becomes even more important when you are having to issue instructions to over a dozen people at the same time. Besides, it actually enhances the idea of MMO global gameplay provided everyone actually speaks the language being channelled.

Prior to voice chats, LS leaders had to be super fast typers in order to give out instructions during HNM battles and so on (this was actually one of the things that burnt out a lot LS officers because this whole process was just downright exhausting).

Point is, harsh exp penalties is a poor way to maintain people's interest in a game; and doesn't necessarily make people better players. Most of the time, people just needed someone to communicate to them (very clearly) on what to do and provided they were mature enough to understand, they would eventually shine.

[ispano]

Nope... on the contrary... its not a crutch but a method to make people learn how to play better faster. Yeah, welcome to the new century of gaming.

Unless you have been playing with other annoying people who really don't give a bloody toss whether they are improving their skills or not, voice chat (in my personal experience) made it MUCH easier to coach people. The whole team will call you out on stuff very quickly, very harshly... and if you don't like it, then get better pronto pronto or log off. And you better believe that your invites to events will diminish very swiftly if you're not making efforts to improve.

The key element about improving skills on most games is ultimately about being very crucially efficient... becomes even more important when you are having to issue instructions to over a dozen people at the same time. Besides, it actually enhances the idea of MMO global gameplay provided everyone actually speaks the language being channelled.

Prior to voice chats, LS leaders had to be super fast typers in order to give out instructions during HNM battles and so on (this was actually one of the things that burnt out a lot LS officers because this whole process was just downright exhausting).

Point is, harsh exp penalties is a poor way to maintain people's interest in a game; and doesn't necessarily make people better players. Most of the time, people just needed someone to communicate to them (very clearly) on what to do and provided they were mature enough to understand, they would eventually shine.

Notice I said certain people? Many people have a tendency to run their mouth when given a mic. When they're forced to type, they can think about what they need to say, and only type what's needed. There's been many instances where groups who used voice chat, lost said voice chat due to say a server outage, and actually did BETTER without it.

People say you need voice chat to be very efficient, however, being properly efficient needs no words at all.

So yes, for a great many people, Voice Chat is a crutch. They lean on it as something that makes them better, only since they choose not to make themselves better.