Anyone wanted to see any kind of merits like FFXI had?

[Wolfie]

The merit system was extremely flawed. I don't want to see the specific system itself return. I do want to (eventually, not immediately) see some kind of post-level-cap advancement features, but not XI's system, because it was both too limiting and too pigeon-holey.

This. The "leveling-up-but-not-really-leveling" thing was bad.

Most other games have their level cap advancement in the form of gear upgrades, PVP, and zone/content unlocks.

Upgrading base stats and abilities makes it very hard to justify raising the level cap, and when you do raise it, well, you saw what happened with Abyssea.

[Gramul]

This. The "leveling-up-but-not-really-leveling" thing was bad.

Most other games have their level cap advancement in the form of gear upgrades, PVP, and zone/content unlocks.

Upgrading base stats and abilities makes it very hard to justify raising the level cap, and when you do raise it, well, you saw what happened with Abyssea.

Then why should they advance the level cap at all?

[Wolfie]

Then why should they advance the level cap at all?

Because it's a way of resetting the game and shortening the gap between people who have just joined the game, and those who have been here for a long time. It also makes it easier to ensure that new content is actually played by people instead of it being dropped in favor of familiar, easier content with similar rewards.

[Xatsh]

Because it's a way of resetting the game and shortening the gap between people who have just joined the game, and those who have been here for a long time. It also makes it easier to ensure that new content is actually played by people instead of it being dropped in favor of familiar, easier content with similar rewards.

I disagree with 100% of this post.

New players should not be able to be as good as an old player quickly. They should be able to advance quick enough to get to endgame and be able to do it, but to truly get decked out with the best of the best gear it SHOULD TAKE YEARS. Especially in a game with multiple jobs per 1 character.

XI never had an issue with people playing new content. So the idea people would not play new content because of old is stupid. PEOPLE SHOULD PLAY BOTH. That is what every mmo developer should do. Make it where content compounds on itself. Make it where a game has so much to do no one can ever get bored of it. Make all new and old content relevant.

[Wolfie]

I disagree with 100% of this post.

New players should not be able to be as good as an old player quickly. They should be able to advance quick enough to get to endgame and be able to do it, but to truly get decked out with the best of the best gear it SHOULD TAKE YEARS. Especially in a game with multiple jobs per 1 character.

XI never had an issue with people playing new content. So the idea people would not play new content because of old is stupid. PEOPLE SHOULD PLAY BOTH. That is what every mmo developer should do. Make it where content compounds on itself. Make it where a game has so much to do no one can ever get bored of it. Make all new and old content relevant.

I fundamentally disagree. Being around longer should not make it harder or impossible for newer players to catch up to you. You should get the benefit of having some rare cosmetic choices, titles, or achievements; but to say that getting to the top tiers of gear and content should take years is basically giving the middle finger to all new players. There's a reason why FFXI capped out early at 400-500k players and stayed there for 6 years.

And really, people in FFXI had no problems playing new content? Who in their right mind even did COP Dynamis? Or most of the ENMs? Vrtra (sort of)? Hydra? Several other NMs? There's a lot of high level content in FFXI that went unused.

At least with semi-regular level cap increases, the devs can have planned obsoleteness and not risk creating content that people will have no interest over.

[Klefth]

And really, people in FFXI had no problems playing new content? Who in their right mind even did COP Dynamis? Or most of the ENMs? Vrtra (sort of)? Hydra? Several other NMs? There's a lot of high level content in FFXI that went unused.

Tons of people did ENMs for money, and CoP Dynamis was pretty damn common. As for the rest, it didn't go unused just because of other older content, but because it didn't have any relevant drops. Who in their right mind went out of their way to kill Vrtra? Or Hydra?

I liked how in XI, they managed to keep both old and new content relevant (before they shat on the game with Abyssea). It always gave you a lot of options to work on. You'd have to have played for many years to run out of content to do. Unfortunately, the way modern MMOs are going, content gets "old" and obsolete within few months, and honestly, I don't know how they intend to keep a stable player base that way. I hope ARR doesn't go in that direction as well.

[Wolfie]

Tons of people did ENMs for money, and CoP Dynamis was pretty damn common. As for the rest, it didn't go unused just because of other older content, but because it didn't have any relevant drops. Who in their right mind went out of their way to kill Vrtra? Or Hydra?

I liked how in XI, they managed to keep both old and new content relevant (before they shat on the game with Abyssea). It always gave you a lot of options to work on. You'd have to have played for many years to run out of content to do. Unfortunately, the way modern MMOs are going, content gets "old" and obsolete within few months, and honestly, I don't know how they intend to keep a stable player base that way. I hope ARR doesn't go in that direction as well.

I think you're vastly over-estimating the amount of people that did higher level ENM and COP Dynamis. Out of all ENMs, only a few were ever used.

You're right on the money about Vrtra and Hydra, and that's a problem of keeping the same level cap. How do you come up with gear that is relevant and that people would want to get for years on end, without blatantly making it have better stats than the previous 'tier' and making it obsolete? Hint: you can't.

You can, however, plan your game so that you know your content has a life of 2-3 years, and that people will want to do every last bit of it, by carefully planning semi-obvious gear upgrades from content that is steadily more and more difficult to do. Sprinkle in some cosmetic rewards that are always available regardless of level, cosmetic rewards for doing the content while it's "relevant" or at the current level cap, and some one-time/server first achievements; and you have content that everyone wants to do, and that distinguishes people who did it the hard way the first time, from people who did it after the level cap was increased.

[Mattia]

Hell no, Merit system as said before was flawed. Few were pleasing while the majority of the merits were an obvious NO. Which made everybody, except SMN at least, merit the same damn thing.