[Reminder] Are you ready to cry again? (2° Wave of Alpha invites tomorrow, 3 dec.)

[Abriael]

The thing is, I really don't see how anyone can possibly accuse SE of not pandering to their loyal fanbase enough. I mean, those who played the game for a certain time in 1.0 had the chance to get their very own rare gobbue mount, one that was not available to get for a short time before the servers went down and will NOT be available to anyone afterwards, especially those starting in ARR. And then you have the Legacy perks, which are up to and including paying a cheaper price for a monthly sub. Every time I turn around SE is doing something to reward their loyal sub base for being loyal. Yet, because they don't let everyone who has been a long time sub into alpha, they suddenly don't treat their loyal sub base right? You have got to be kidding me.

As I said before, I am also a legacy member who has been with 1.0 since before all the revisioning started. And I am also disappointed that I didn't get into legacy. But does that mean I should accuse SE of "doing it wrong" because I didn't get into alpha? Or that I should believe they are not "nice to their loyal subscribers" because I didn't get to test the game out in alpha phase? With all the perks I've gotten from SE for being a long-time sub, I should now flip out and go all conspiracy theory on them for not letting me into alpha? I'm sorry, I just can't agree with that. I just can't. And I'm not trying to "White Knight" SE or anything, it just doesn't make sense to me.

It's not a matter of "pandering". People here aren't asking for gifts or giveaways.

It's a matter of valuing their feedback and providing them with a way to give it.

You're comparing apples to oranges. All the "perks" you name (in game memorabilia? please. Who cares?) don't even get near the value of the ability to influence the early development and direction of the game we're all going to play.

That's what feedback given in the alpha is. Whether that influence is big or small or negligible is inconsequential. For a loyal and passionate customer it's a very important thing.

By not inviting all their loyal customers to the alpha square enix has deprieved a sizable number of them of that ability, which simply translate on the fact that their feedback isn't given sufficient value, and it's placed below the "feedback" (assuming it's even coming, and from most it probably isn't) of people that kicked the game into the curb years ago and never cared until now that there's a shiny new toy to play with.

With no way to be sure that they'll even get an early access to the beta, many simply think: "great, when I'll get in and I'll finally be able to throw in the weight of my feedback, it'll be too late and my feedback will be moot".

Sorry, but if you think a big ass mount that you pull out only when you want to grief your peers can replace that, you really didn't understand why many are so passionate about getting into the alpha.

Getting into the early testing of a game means being able to exercise the most influence on that game's future direction, as many concepts are still deep into development. The later you get in, the more that (already limited) ability is reduced.

It's absolutely normal and understandable that people that have suffered through the worst of 1.0 and have been here since are disappointed by seeing that ability taken away from them and given to someone that didn't care and ragequit.

Beta: Let all the Legacy members/1.0 people back in

You're aware that there's absolutely no guarantee that such a thing will happen right? I HOPE it does, and that's why I've been criticizing the selection process for the alpha. It would make sense for it to be like that, just as it would have made sense for the alpha.

But again, hopes and common sense don't mean it'll happen like that.

Agreed, I can't wait for beta!

And the funny thing is that he accuses others of spamming the same things over and over. lol.

[SkyeWindbinder]

It's not a matter of "pandering". It's a matter of valuing their feedback and providing them with a way to give it.

Which you will get when beta rolls around. Just because you haven't gotten into alpha doesn't really mean you've been "slighted". You simply weren't one of the lucky few. I'm sure they're getting feedback from the people who are in alpha. And as long as that's happening, things are on the right track.

You're comparing apples to oranges. All the "perks" you name (in game memorabilia? please. Who cares?) don't even get near the value of the ability to influence the early development and direction of the game we're all going to play.

Says you. You see, you're only speaking from the view of what you want and feel you should get. I personally think the perks are nothing to sneeze at. Especially consdering we will pay a considerably less amount for our subscription than others will. If you don't think that's a great deal, then in my opinion you are asking waaay too much. lol And as I said, they have people in alpha who I'm sure will give them the feedback they require. Just because you're not one of them does't mean they're "doing it wrong".

That's what feedback given in the alpha is. Whether that influence is big or small or negligible is inconsequential. For a loyal and passionate customer it's a very important thing.

So is paying less money for a subscription. And once again, they are getting the feedback they require. And, once again, just because you're not one of the few selected to do so doesn't mean you've really been slighted or that they're going about the process wrong. After taking time in meetings and months of preparation, they're handling the alpha phase their way. All you can really do is sit back, relax, and wait till beta.

By not inviting all their loyal customers to the alpha square enix has deprieved a sizable number of them of that ability, which simply translate on the fact that their feedback isn't given sufficient value, and it's placed below the "feedback" (assuming it's even coming, and from most it probably isn't) of people that kicked the game into the curb years ago and never cared until now that there's a shiny new toy to play with.

That's how you choose to translate it. Who knows what their plan is for whom they picked and chose for alpha. Some superbly loyal customers got in. Some not so loyal (at least not for as long as the others) also got in. SE most likely have their reasons for doing it this way. It's their plan. And they're going with it, whether you feel some people "deserved" to get into alpha or not.

With no way to be sure that they'll even get an early access to the beta, many simply think: "great, when I'll get in and I'll finally be able to throw in the weight of my feedback, it'll be too late and my feedback will be moot".

How do you know that's how they're going to handle beta? For all you know, feedback could still be a very big thing during the beta phase. Or maybe not. The point is, they're going to let in whom they're going to let in. And if you want to say they're not "being nice to their loyal sub base" then that's your opinion. I, personally, find such a claim to be, well, unfounded, as well as a trigger effect of frustration and anger of not getting into alpha. Especially given what loyal subs have been given for being loyal subs.

Sorry, but if you think a big ass mount that you pull out only when you want to grief your peers can replace that, you really didn't understand why many are so passionate about getting into the alpha.

So, you assume people wll only pull out the mount to "grief their peers". That's a huge assumption, and pretty unfounded too. You also assume that getting into alpha is more of a perk than paying a cheaper price for a subscription for, like, forever when others will pay a significantly higher price is less significant than getting into alpha. (shrug) Well fine, to each his own. But to that, I have to say this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

[Abriael]

loads of snippets

I'm sure you don't mind if I condense and synthetize the bloated multiple qotes for the sake of brevity and legibility.

1: You're comparing apples to oranges. In Game items or discounts are a completely different cup of tea from being able to influence the early development of a game. Giving one doesn't help in any way if the receiver wants the other. Paying less for a game and having items in a game doesn't help in any way if a customer doesn't enjoy the game, and being able to influence the game's direction and development is the only way we have to directly increase the chance that we'll enjoy said game.

The fact that they have other people in the alpha giving *their* feedback and pulling the game in the direction *they* want doesn't help in any way.

2: The later you get into the testing of a game, the less you'll have a chance to influence its development and direction. This is a steel-clad and undeniable rule of testing, as the more development progress, the more design becomes rigid. Therefore getting into a beta (that's IF you get in it early or ever) is no replacement for getting into the alpha (and getting into beta late is no replacement of getting into early beta) for the sake of giving feedback that may have a sizable chance of getting considered.

3: "it's their game, they do what they want" doesn't fly. As paying customers we have full right to criticize the way they handle their game. That's the very definition of customer-provided criticism and feedback. According to your flawed logic, alpha and beta are completely useless because "it's their game", so our feedback has no value.

As usual, second guessing my motives is just a petty personal attack and adds no solid ground under your assumptions.

[SkyeWindbinder]

I'm sure you don't mind if I condense and synthetize the bloated multiple qotes for the sake of brevity and legibility.

By all means, go ahead.

1: You're comparing apples to oranges. In Game items or discounts are a completely different cup of tea from being able to influence the early development of a game. Giving one doesn't help in any way if the receiver wants the other. Paying less for a game and having items in a game doesn't help in any way if a customer doesn't enjoy the game, and being able to influence the game's direction and development is the only way we have to directly increase the chance that we'll enjoy said game.

1. Once again, says you. You are speaking your judgment on SE's alpha tester selecting process based on your desires to test the game and your opinion about how it should be done. It means more to you than paying a smaller price for a subscription. When it all boils down to it, you are merely passing judgment based on what Abriael wants. Not on what the game needs, not on whether the game will be okay with the alpha testers it has now, it's all about what you want and what you feel you should get. You're only focused on Abriael wants, Abriael wants, Abriael wants. Well I'm sorry, but things just don't always work out that way. No, not even in video games. As for whether or not you'll enjoy the game, you'll just have to wait and see if you will, like all the other millions of people who weren't selected for alpha testing.

The fact that they have other people in the alpha giving *their* feedback and pulling the game in the direction *they* want doesn't help in any way.

Correction, it doesn't help you feel better in any way. You don't know whether or not the people testing are doing a splendid job reccomending all the things you might. If you did know any specifics that happened during alpha testing, then someones breaching that NDA, you know, that agreement you like to preach often about why people shouldn't be breaching it. (You even threatened to tattle on someone for it. lol)

2: The later you get into the testing of a game, the less you'll have a chance to influence its development and direction. This is a steel-clad and undeniable rule of testing, as the more development progress, the more design becomes rigid. Therefore getting into a beta (that's IF you get in it early or ever) is no replacement for getting into the alpha (and getting into beta late is no replacement of getting into early beta) for the sake of giving feedback that may have a sizable chance of getting considered.

2. And yet, if you do get into beta, you'll be able to give feedback. So maybe the complaining is a bit premature, eh? And even if you don't get into beta, tough. You'll be no different from the millions of other people who don't get into beta. However, of two things you can be certain:

a. Someone will get into beta, whether it's you or not.

b. Those people (at least some of them) will provide feedback on the game.

So running around like, well, one of these, squawking "If we don't get in now, we might never get in to test the game!" is not going to do you any good. Just. Freakin. Relax.

3: "it's their game, they do what they want" doesn't fly. As paying customers we have full right to criticize the way they handle their game. That's the very definition of customer-provided criticism and feedback. According to your flawed logic, alpha and beta are completely useless because "it's their game", so our feedback has no value.

Actually, it does fly Abriael. It flies quite well, like a gassed up super-jet on a bright sunny day. Yes, you do have the right to criticize. But really, that's about where your power stops. One thing I have noticed about your posts is that you seem to think that if you are not there personally to give your opinion on how the game is going during alpha that it is going to collapse under it's own weight of fail and FFXIV will be no more. Well I'm sorry, Abriael. As much as you would like to believe you are the "chosen one", the one fortold throughout the ages to give the greatest most legendary alpha feedback ever, um, you're not. Not really. And yes, that was an exaggeration. But not that far from your attitude, to be honest. For all you know, the people giving advice on the game are doing a PHENOMENAL job doing so. Maybe ten times better than you, I, or anyone not selected could. Who knows? We do know that they're there, experiencing the game, and SE is getting their feedback. Jus because you're not there overseeing the experience yourself doesn't necessarily mean things are going wrong. So, stop that. lol

As usual, second guessing my motives is just a petty personal attack and adds no solid ground under your assumptions.

Not really a personal attack. But if you think "second guessing someone's motives" truly is a personal attack, you might want to rescend that comment you made about people showing off their goobbues just to "grief their peers".

[Starlord]

Well I'm sorry, Abriael. As much as you would like to believe you are the "chosen one", the one fortold throughout the ages to give the greatest most legendary alpha feedback ever, um, you're not.

LOL I am so siging this XD That made me laugh hard!

[Abriael]

a big misguided wall of multi quotes, misrepresentation, strawman arguments, hyperbole and personal attacks

1: No matter how much you enjoy repeating the words "you" and "yours" and bolding them (like it gave any solid ground to your arguments. Hint: it doesn't). The fact that perks and discounts and the ability to directly influence the direction and development of a game are two entirely different values is indeed a fact. You (see, i can do it too) may think them equivalent, but they are factually different. Quite obviously others don't consider them equivalent and don't consider one a valid replacement for the other. So they won't be satisfied by the perks and discounts if what they want is the chance to influence the game. It's that simple.

The fact that you're satisfied with saving some money and getting some virtual items doesn't mean everyone else should be.

2: yes. We don't know if the current alpha testers are doing a good or a bad job with feedback. That's exactly the problem. You may be used to function on blind faith. Others do not. Again, it's that simple.

3: No matter if getting into the beta may or may not allow to provide feedback in time for it to be considered. The later you get into the testing of a game, the less you'll have a chance to influence its development and direction. Again. This is a steel-clad rule. So it's obvious that people that want to give that feedback are not happy about being deprieved of that chance while seeing it given to people that did nothing to deserve it and already proved to care less about the game.

4: I'm sure you'll be able to quote where I said that the game "is going to collapse" if I'm not there. Or better. No, you won't, because I didn't say it or anything even remotely comparable. Misrepresenting someone's argument because you can't counter it in its original form is called a "strawman argument". Needless to say, it makes your point void of any validity.

Do come back when you're able to express a concept without hyperbole.

5: you continue to try and steer the discourse towards the "you" (how much you love your personal attacks... but we already noticed that), but it's not about me. It's about a very sizable amount of people that supported the game for two years, and still their feedback is being considered and facilitated less than the feedback of those that ragequit after a month. Which is, in my opinion and in that of many others, not kosher. Again, it's really that simple.

6: If I have the right to criticize, why again are you here to antagonize me? because your continuous personal attacks say the contrary. Please do not contradict yourself.

7: The joke about the gobbue's big ass was indeed a joke. You need a sense of humor. And yes, second guessing your counterpart's motives in order to misrepresent their position like you continuously do is a personal attack. But you've been doing it since the start of the alpha, in between calling people "butthurt" and "crybabies", so I'm not all that surprised.

[SkyeWindbinder]

More self-entitled BS, as usual

Oh god, Abriael. You know, I actually do feel sorry for you. You are so intent on being "right" that you just can't see the forest for the trees. In a sad way, you really don't see how entitled and self absorbed you are really being. No, these are not personal attacks. There are criticisms. And quite founded ones, I might add. I really didn't even bother to read all your former post, because I'm willing to bet it's more of the same:

A. SE does not treat it's fanbase (i.e.: you) right because they (i.e.: you) didn't get into alpha as they (i,e,: you) wanted
B. Anyone who calls you out for being selt-absorbed and self-entitled is "attacking you"
C. Alpha absolutely cannot be effective unless all of FF14's fanbase (i.e.: you) are participating.

Please, stop. Just... stop. It's sad, and you're only making a mockery of yourself. I actually feel embarrassed for you. Look, despite your energetic claims otherwise, alpha can and will function without you. SE has people covering that. Your only gripe is that you're not one of those people. If you were, you'd have absolutely no problem with how SE deals with it's fanbase, despite the fact that other loyalists didn't get in. And you know it to be true, lol. Your posts are merely you ranting because you're frustrated. You really wanted to get into alpha. And I can respect that. I wanted to get in too. But throwing a hissy fit and saying SE is mistreating their fanbase (i.e.: you) because you didn't get in, I can't give even an ounce of respect to that.

Guess what? THIS IS NOT ABRIAEL'S WORLD. THIS IS EARTH. And on earth, things don't always go Abriael's way. You are no different from all the other people who didn't get into alpha, except for the fact that you whine about it more than anyone else. It's not necessary. You are not a vital part of testing the game. Yes, people in general are needed to test the game. But they have people there. Testing the game. And whether you think they deserve to or not, they're there because SE wants them, and not YOU, there. I know, it's a bitter pill to swallow. But buck up. Soon you'll get to play the full, entire version of the game. And besides, a little disappointment is actually good for you every now and again. Builds character.

Really, you need to relax. You are going to be okay. The game is not going anywhere. And there's always beta to look forward to. Just breathe in, breathe out. Breathe in, breathe out. It's alright, Abriael. The testing will go fine without your omniscient, omnipresent gaze looking at it through your computer screen. I know, such a thought is ludicrous to you, that you are not the most important person in the alpha process. But... yeah. Just. Relax.

[Abriael]

More personal attacks, because when you can't counter someone's points, all that's left is to attack him on a personal level

A: You continue to try to steer the direction of the discussion towards me. Too bad it isn't about just me. But do keep on with the personal attacks.
B: If you can't debate on the arguments, but you have to shift the discourse on the person (calling him with negative adjectives like self-absorbed, self-entitled, crybaby, butthurt and so forth, as you have been doing with me and others since the beginning of the alpha) yes, you're attacking on a personal level. That's the very definition of it, and it's normally frowned upon.

C:

Alpha absolutely cannot be effective unless all of FF14's fanbase (i.e.: you) are participating.

Another strawman argument. I never said that "alpha absolutely cannot be effective", or anything even remotely similar. Really can't counter my points in their original form, mh?

The rest of your post is basically:

YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU

Only, It's not about me. The funniest part is that I'm not even fully part of the group I'm describing, since differently from others I did quit the game for a rather long period (and therefore I deserve to be in the alpha quite a lot less than a lot of others that are here and never quit the game from launch to today). If SE let into the alpha every single one between those than never quit the game and excluded everyone else (me included) I'd be perfectly ok with it.

In that case their priorities would still be set right, as the correct order of inviting should be: Those that stuck with the game from start to end -> Those that stuck with the game for a long time even though they left for a period -> Everyone else.

I'm perfectly relaxed. So relaxed that I don't even feel the need to attack you or anyone else here on a personal level, and continue to bring my arguments in a balanced and reasoned way.

On the other hand, it seems that the fact that someone dares to criticize SE's ways of selecting the testers makes you rage so much that you need to point your little finger at them and try your hardest to attack their person instead of attacking their position.

Well, sorry to burst a big bubble, but discussion doesn't work that way. You demonstrated over and over again that you have absolutely no way to counter my arguments, and need to shift the discussion against my person to try and hide that fact. The funny part is that you aren't even managing to irritate me, as I find your continuous finger pointing, aggression and strawman throwing amusing.

Of course this is not Abriael's world. Things don't always go Abriael's way, but being someone with a brain of his own, Abriael will express his opinion whether you like it or not. It's really that simple, and it's exactly what this forum is for.

That opinion is that Square Enix should have shown more consideration for their loyal fanbase (incidentally: "loyal" and "Loyalist" are two very different concepts. this isn't a civil war despite the fact that you seem to be very intent in turning it into one) providing them with a way to give direct feedback on the alpha before looking to bring in people that have not shown the same the degree of loyalty.

That opinion will not change, and I will continue to express it, no matter how much you attack my person because you can't attack the opinion itself.

I'll be looking forward to another reply of yours full of "you this" and "you that"

[Nix]

Snippety

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYsw0KVRjCM
<3

[SkyeWindbinder]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYsw0KVRjCM
<3

<3

I love that movie! XD