Global Countdown Timer - My big concern for the future on FFXIV.

[Zezlar]

Got to play the alpha version before speculating.

The fact is tp will also be treated like mp, and we have a maximum amount of 1000 tp as a result. SE mention skillful play will play a role in whether a battle is successful or not, and we've only seen them fight easy/weak monsters in beginners area. I can't really speculate or give correct answers, but I can say I'm not worried at all.

There's no harm in a rationale discussion about it though. It also gives developers into insights as to what players do/don't want. Also @ Dannythm I do think you bring up an interesting point there. I do believe that longer countdowns should be placed on big weapon skill combos. Definitely would help alleviate the problem of just using your best combo repeatedly.

[Dannythm]

Also @ Dannythm I do think you bring up an interesting point there. I do believe that longer countdowns should be placed on big weapon skill combos. Definitely would help alleviate the problem of just using your best combo repeatedly.

Yeah, Actually I was thinking, unless square uses some kind of Random number generation theory into the combat system mechanics, so the period of the optimal rotation is so big that until we have to repeat the rotation we'll feel not to have a rotation, we WILL discover the rotations for each fight and apply them, like we did in 1.0 and in every other MMO.

But don't worry, I'm pretty sure they will keep in mind the individual CD's and the GDC and how they work together along with the WS workings to create a fun, tactic and engaging combat system.

[Hulan]

Yeah, Actually I was thinking, unless square uses some kind of Random number generation theory into the combat system mechanics, so the period of the optimal rotation is so big that until we have to repeat the rotation we'll feel not to have a rotation, we WILL discover the rotations for each fight and apply them, like we did in 1.0 and in every other MMO.

But don't worry, I'm pretty sure they will keep in mind the individual CD's and the GDC and how they work together along with the WS workings to create a fun, tactic and engaging combat system.

I think this is actually a pretty good argument for no cooldowns, but instead finite resource management. In "WoW-style" ability systems (as opposed to EQ/FFXI ability systems) there is always going to be some kind of a optimized ability rotation. Removing cooldowns adds another level of abstraction.

In cooldown based systems, your mind will go through the thought process of "ability 1 -> ability 2 -> ability 3 -> Wait for ability 1 to come back up -> ability 1" (yes this is a huge simplification, but I'd rather not write an entire paragraph about it). But if your remove the cooldown, and instead restrict by finite resources, every step in that cycle is made more complex by a "is this the right time to use this ability" branch. It changes the system from a binary choice to a looped binary choice.

Fundumentally it's still the same system, but it adds a level of complexity that could be quite welcome (if implemented well).

[Dannythm]

I think this is actually a pretty good argument for no cooldowns, but instead finite resource management. In "WoW-style" ability systems (as opposed to EQ/FFXI ability systems) there is always going to be some kind of a optimized ability rotation. Removing cooldowns adds another level of abstraction.

In cooldown based systems, your mind will go through the thought process of "ability 1 -> ability 2 -> ability 3 -> Wait for ability 1 to come back up -> ability 1" (yes this is a huge simplification, but I'd rather not write an entire paragraph about it). But if your remove the cooldown, and instead restrict by finite resources, every step in that cycle is made more complex by a "is this the right time to use this ability" branch. It changes the system from a binary choice to a looped binary choice.

Fundumentally it's still the same system, but it adds a level of complexity that could be quite welcome (if implemented well).

But the system we are getting is more complex than that, it has finite resources AND cooldowns, so we will have to think it through to get the most optimized combination of skills.

Add to it that they may add elemental effects to certain WS or chains that will render them useless against certain enemies or really powerful against others.

[Hulan]

But the system we are getting is more complex than that, it has finite resources AND cooldowns, so we will have to think it through to get the most optimized combination of skills.

Add to it that they may add elemental effects to certain WS or chains that will render them useless against certain enemies or really powerful against others.

True, but as you said before, eventually, for any given encounter, someone will come up with a percieved "best" rotation. Removing cooldowns keeps everyone on their toes, since at every moment, they have to be decided "is this the best time to take the next step".

It occurs to me that, as a side effect, it would also make it almost impossible to make an optimized bot for it. Classic Min-Max trees would have an extremely hard time looking more than 3 WSs ahead unless you set the decision granularity very high. Though making a simple bot that didn't bother with Min-Max trees would still work....

Edit: On reflection, that was kind of a silly thought, not because it isn't true, but because as far as I know, most MMO bots don't bother with advanced AI Game Theory. Even as simple as Min-Max trees ^.^;

[syntaxlies]

True, but as you said before, eventually, for any given encounter, someone will come up with a percieved "best" rotation. Removing cooldowns keeps everyone on their toes, since at every moment, they have to be decided "is this the best time to take the next step".

It occurs to me that, as a side effect, it would also make it almost impossible to make an optimized bot for it. Classic Min-Max trees would have an extremely hard time looking more than 3 WSs ahead unless you set the decision granularity very high. Though making a simple bot that didn't bother with Min-Max trees would still work....

If you removed cool downs there would still be rotations. Combos are instantly grouped together. Then you have your buffs, ou will always use them with the skills that they are best suited for (mostly). If you removd cool downs it would just allow players to spam there best combo ovr and over again.

[Hulan]

If you removed cool downs there would still be rotations. Combos are instantly grouped together. Then you have your buffs, ou will always use them with the skills that they are best suited for (mostly). If you removd cool downs it would just allow players to spam there best combo ovr and over again.

Not if you are limited by resource, which is my point. I agree completely that with a system like this (or anything even close), there will always be rotations. Without cooldowns - and limited resources - though, each step along the way has to be used at it's optimal time. Cooldowns, in a way, remove a choice from the players, that being "when".

I'll grant, for that to be true, a few other things have to fall into place as well. For instance, battles need to be complex enough that "when" doesn't always boil down to "as soon as possible". That can be arranged though, something as simple as a boss that has an ability the turns him invincible for a few seconds at a time would do the trick.

It's not like there haven't been classes that had to deal with this already. BLMs as I understand it (I'll admit, not one of the jobs I leveled in FFXIV [though I was a career BLM in FFXI]), has pay attention to hate, MP, and mob position. All of those factor into his/her decision on when to cast a spell, none of which usually line up with the Cooldown. In that way, BLM might as well not have cooldowns, since it rarely effects what spell they cast when. Though that's just an example.

[syntaxlies]

Yeah, Actually I was thinking, unless square uses some kind of Random number generation theory into the combat system mechanics, so the period of the optimal rotation is so big that until we have to repeat the rotation we'll feel not to have a rotation, we WILL discover the rotations for each fight and apply them, like we did in 1.0 and in every other MMO.

But don't worry, I'm pretty sure they will keep in mind the individual CD's and the GDC and how they work together along with the WS workings to create a fun, tactic and engaging combat system.

Please, no more rng

[Hulan]

Please, no more rng

She wasn't saying rng, she was saying Random number theory, it's... ok, not something else entirely, but they are slightly different things.