Why not abolish the Class system entirely in favor of Jobs? [@ Devs]

[Shadow_Sama]

I just don't see how getting "only 5 abilities from a new job" and recycling abilities from pre-existing classes is appealing. If Square dug themselves a hole with this with the lore/history, then the only solution is keep a 1 to 1 ratio for class and jobs. I'd rather not recycle abilities, spells, and weaponskills and have a new game play experience. I don't feel content with a mere "5 new abilities!" When a new job is introduced. Just feels pathetic. :/

[Shougun]

Hm, I don't think it's as forced as that. Anyway, maybe I'm just lazy, but I think the system is fine as is. It may not be perfect, but Connecting jobs and classes this way is actually a unique way to do it. And it has potential for so many combinations. I just think we should roll with the system we have for now and see how things go. If a change is really needed, we can petition later for a patch, or something. Or maybe it will come with the first expansion, who knows?

Its quite a few months too late to change the system without making a hilarious delay to the game - so this is just fun talk.

Even if you dont want to roll with it.. you gonna be rolling with it lol

Just leery of seeing the same abilities on different jobs and it all in 5 years coming out to a kind of hodge podge. Breaking the structure (becoming asymmetric) will work but its lame in my opinon - beautiful symmetry shows forethought and the simplicity is engaging (to my slightly eccentric mind).

[GodseijuroHiko]

I think the contributing problem in the class to job system, is that it stifles the job system's ability to expand itself in the long run.

To give some examples of this, I must first explain the obvious. How the system currently is. There has been no updates on how Square will be handling the Class/Job thing. But based on what we had before, assuming they're keeping to the same system, the following will most likely be the case.

Keeping the current system means one of two things. We're going to have one new class introduced with everyone one job:

Arcanist > Summoner
Scout > Theif

Or

We're going to have multiple jobs to a single class:

Gladiator > Paladin / Dark Knight
Archer > Bard / Ranger

And so on.

The problem with the first way, is that it makes the classes redundant. You are merely gaining an additional 5 abilities that can be drawn from any class (a total of 10) as opposed to a job, which can chose 5 abilities from pre-selected classes. However, you gain 5 "unique abilities" particular to your job. (Still giving you a total of 10). Any job can solo, and all jobs have a way; native or not, to heal themselves. Paladins can cure themselves. Warriors have an ability to restore HP through a native ability and second wind. Monk, Bard, and Dragoon are the same case. They're preselected classes allow them to heal themselves. Some jobs can solo more efficiently than others, but the fact remains if classes were removed, a job can still solo. They just have to play differently to stay alive (as they should).

In the second route, it makes jobs pointless. Why would you want to be a Dark Knight, if you're going to do the same weaponskills a Gladiator does aside from 5 unique abilities the dark knight and paladin gets, it sorta makes for boring gameplay. Jobs that share a base class will all do the same thing aside from 5 abilities. Where is the fun and uniqueness in that ? Jobs sharing a route class also ruin the balance of the job. A Dark Knight is supposed to be a damage dealer, yet all the abilities and traits learned on Gladiaor favor tanking abilities and traits. How can these abilities help a Dark Knight ? A class well known to perform damage but sacrifices deffence ? Does that mean Square has to create talent trees now so your gladiator can be more tailored for a Dark Knight ? Or must we all endure a broken Dark Knight because its native class, the Gladiator, only offers tank traits ? Dark Knights don't need provoke, or Rampart, or Sentinel. They need they're own native abilities. And no matter how you slice it, no class can tailor and new job tacked on to it. So square can only go the first route. Which is redundant anyway.

I too believe the class system should be abolished, and have only the jobs. Perhaps just give them a little more flexibility, or just introduce the "Onion Knight" job. Which essentially acts like a class. You can pick and chose whatever abilities you need to a degree, and that can be your solo class. Just food for thought.

Your second paragraph is what people like Kallera seem to miss. Every time they post, they just repeat themselves. "I don't want classes gone," while ignoring what the necrobumper brought up. Was it that hard to get? He wasn't as clear as you, but I thought it would make people think a bit. The 2nd paragraph is a HUGE red flag and it jumped out at me very quickly. If you're going to make a Dark knight, you need a base class for it. In fact, if you're going to make ANY new job, you might as well create a new class all together along with a new weapon. I mean come on... THINK. If that doesn't scream complicated or restrictive, I don't know... Ronin > samurai, Thief > Ninja (though I don't know how a rogue can use a kunai or one handed katana) *See how complicated that is? Now if you just say, "hey here's a ninja job!" Great! we get a new job, a new weapon, minus the annoyance of trying to explain how this class turns into it. It's a valid concern, and ignoring it by saying things like, "if you want FFXI, go play FFXI," shows you either can't wrap your mind around it, or you're being purposely obtuse.

Now, I like the idea of mixing and matching abilities to create your own character. That is what I liked about FXIV when it was first announced. It was the foundation on which the game was built. Adding 5 new abilities gives the class a twist but its still 90% the class with the inability to draw from other classes.

[GodseijuroHiko]

I personally like the idea of the Class/Armory system for a few different reasons:
1) In terms of content, it's easier to have a class branch in multiple jobs (GLD to PLD or DRK, depending on other class levels for example) then building an entirely new class when they want to add new stuff.
2) In terms of PvP (coming in 2.0) it's much easier to balance 9 classes against each other then tweak the 5 abilities of jobs for PvP than it is to to balance what would eventually be 10+ classes (assuming they add jobs regularly).
3) I LOVE the fact that with the Armory system it's easier to solo. Having to party up in order to be able to get healing in FFXI really slowed the game down for me and the survivability of classes in WoW went from LOLEASY to stupid tough depending on which expansion you're looking at.

I'm trying to wrap my mind around people that post this same exact thing... A dark knight with all of gladiator's abilities + 5 more is still a freaking tank... with extra 5 abilities. Seriously guys... is it really that difficult to see the issue here?

People who want the class system gone don't say it because they hate it, or they're against your fun... It's going to cause problems adding new content later. You simply can't have 2 jobs from one class. I mean while we're at it, lets just put summoner from conj. I mean we all know that lvling up smn in ffxi was basically a party who couldn't find a whm lolol.

Keep the system as it is now, and keep releasing new classes > jobs
or
Get rid of classes

You can't have multiple jobs stem from one class. It's lazy. Unless the jobs are supposed to be very similar but with different purposes.

Lancer >Dragoon/Dragon Knight would be ok I guess. I don't know why... but hey, why not right?

[GodseijuroHiko]

You are forgetting something: all those jobs were after 10 years.

What did they have in the beginning? 6

After their first expansion: 15

We have 3 DoL, 7 DoW amd DoM with 7 jobs and and and 8th on the way, and about 8 crafting jobs.

Even if you didnt count the classes that's 19 different style of play. 19 things to level to 50.

If you were just count the classes you fight with its 8 things to level to 50, which could result in up to16 different styles of play depending on the changes in ARR. (Arcanist to summoner tactics for example.)

Do you even understand what they're saying? No one is hating on your system. There is an obvious, gaping flaw! 1.0 was shit. A relm reborn... that title gives them free reign to change what ever they see fit. No one wants FFXI-2. You talk of choice and freedom, yet you want one class to be locked into ONE weapon. Samurai are known to be good archers. It's the reason why in FFXI, they wre able to use their GKT and BOW for relic.

Just accept the fact that there were some good things about 1.0 and many bad things about 1.0. You can't keep all of them. Yoshi, IMO should have had the foresight so see that adding job would be restricting. This is what people are talking about here. We're not just saying it just to complain.

[GodseijuroHiko]

Ive also thought about the class system and how it is only really a means to an ends now (unless they have changed it in 2.0).

First off forget the notion of removing classes altogether, that just wont happen. One idea ive thought of that could work is:

Classes max out at level 50 and dont level any higher, once a new level cap is introduced only jobs will continue to level past 50 also at this time you will have 2 choices of jobs for each class, with the second job choice unlocked at 50. for example leveling archer unlocks bard at 30 then at 50 archer the ranger is unlocked allowing you to play either bard or ranger jobs past 50. This allows classes to still be kept with the core skills going to level 50 used by both bard and ranger and serve as the means to an ends which is the leveling to 50 process. Past level 50 bard and ranger get more unique skills from each other plus all the core archer skills up to 50. This way classes serve their purpose and dont have to be removed entirely and are mainly for players leveling to 50.

Do you see how complicated everything has to be just so we keep classes?

[Keith_Dragoon]

Do you see how complicated everything has to be just so we keep classes?

there is a multi-quote option :P

[NadienKirisame]

Do you see how complicated everything has to be just so we keep classes?

Not complicated at all unless you are trying to make it that way... Also abilities are changing in ARR and you can already see it in the video where the CNJ has a water attack spell... They have also said all class/jobs are being reworked and mnk is getting some big changes...

I would say the class > job system is fine and they can always add more abilities to the jobs since it is not based on level but on quests. Also there are a lot of weapons/items that can be used to make more classes so I don't think we need to have 2 jobs to each class or more... I will also point out that I don't think that is how they are looking at it either since in an old interview Yoshi mentioned taking daggers out of the sword grouping to give to a scout class that would have the job ninja... so I think they are looking at more classes with a job coming from each class.

The cat is bemused =-.-=

[Kiote]

This thread is so full of false problems, it's Ridiculous.. The most Glaring being, "You have to make a new Class every time you want to make a new Job"

You do realize that, even if you remove classes, you still have to create the first Half of the Job..

Classes are designed for people who want to Experiment and Modify their Character to play the way they want too. Jobs are designed to specialize players in to party roles so you don't get stuck with a Whm that can't heal or a Tank that thinks they are a DD.

Every single "problem" you people have mentioned in this thread would be better solved by making Jobs more specialized and Classes more customizable.

Removing Classes will do exactly nothing to help this game. Having them, if nothing else, will make Solo play and PvP significantly more Diverse and Fun.

Please Stop Trying To Remove Things From The Game That People Like. Let This Thread Die.

[GodseijuroHiko]

there is a multi-quote option :P

Sorry I bothered you.