Where is FFXIV headed in terms of sexism?

[Laiferr]

Honestly, I read this and was a little creeped out by the fact that you kept talking like you could relate to the female perspective, when you clearly suggested you were male.

I don't know if this is a response to me (??) as I don't think anywhere I 'clearly suggested' I was male? I was trying to keep the OP reasonably gender-neutral as I'm talking about the treatment of the avatars, so my gender has no bearing on that. Though even if I was I have no idea what's 'creepy' about a man understanding/empathizing with a woman's perspective.

I would also like to add one more thing: I personally think all the people making threads expressing their disinterest in the Dev's design philosophies should really take a step back and let the Devs design the game that they've worked so hard on with their own artistic talents... asking for less skimpy attire really interferes with their creative minds a bit when they have to appease everyone, especially if it's something nitch.

We're past the umpteenth so this is now the millionth; yet again, this is not a thread saying there should be no sexy gear. Please, pleeeeease just read the thread. Also the devs openly ask for feedback so I'm not sure what your point is.

[Emonzaemon]

I don't know if this is a response to me (??) as I don't think anywhere I 'clearly suggested' I was male? I was trying to keep the OP reasonably gender-neutral as I'm talking about the treatment of the avatars, so my gender has no bearing on that. Though even if I was I have no idea what's 'creepy' about a man understanding/empathizing with a woman's perspective.

It has a big impact on things if you're not actually a female player playing a female avatar. You can't just claim to understand something if you aren't actually experiencing the real thing. A guy has options to handle this, a woman only has the option to lie or deal with it.

I read your post and my opinion still stands. Feedback is one thing, but saying that they should outright change something to someone's liking is not feedback. I never said you were asking for no skimpy gear, but it's hard to draw a line on topics like this. They can never be resolved as "We'll cut back", because soon or later, it won't last.

This topic isn't as helpful as you think it might be. Good feedback would be expressing that you are not satisfied with the current design choices overall because you are a female playing this game and you feel alienated and that you would like to have more options to be dressed more refined. Instead what you have done is tried to remain anonymous with your gender and make it hard to be clear on what you are as a demographic (If you are just "white knighting" or if you have a legitimate concern.) Your topic isn't clear on your goals, you're just posing food for thought and it's going to go nowhere.

[strallaalaa]

they ask for feedback cause they want you to feel like you have a real saying in the matter. truthfully we all know that the choices have already been made. there won't most likely be same sex marriage and boobs bouncing is in.

here is a link ...lmao al bundy says it best, just remove beer with mmo's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spIrhYfwi5c

[Junpei]

The Tags in this thread are amazing.

Also Laiferr the one from HCC with Lorelai?

[Emonzaemon]

Anyway, point is you clearly have your opinion and have your own way about handling these things which I disagree with. I see your point, but I disagree with your method as it's just unclear and is not constructive in my own views. Feedback should be carefully structured to illustrate a point, not seen as "Food for thought" with the demographic not being pinpointed. I'm finished with the thread because I left my opinion and it will only cause bickering if I continue to post.


In short, yes I see your point. I don't agree with your post or method.

[Laiferr]

It has a big impact on things if you're not actually a female player playing a female avatar. You can't just claim to understand something if you aren't actually experiencing the real thing. A guy has options to handle this, a woman only has the option to lie or deal with it.

If that's the case I have no idea why you singled me out, since plenty of guys have replied to this thread telling me to 'grow up' it 'doesn't matter' throwing opinions around etc etc. Surely, since they haven't experienced the real thing, they have no place in saying if it is or isn't an issue, according to that logic.

And no, it doesn't matter if they're male or female or not, I'm talking about the treatment of avatars. I'm not talking about how, as a female, women deal with it/respond to it. I did in some of the additional comments but in the additional comments I openly talk about being female, which you didn't know, so I'm assuming you don't mean those. The OP is purely addressing how the dev team create and respond to their female avatars, and people's thoughts on this.

I read your post and my opinion still stands. Feedback is one thing, but saying that they should outright change something to someone's liking is not feedback. I never said you were asking for no skimpy gear, but it's hard to draw a line on topics like this. They can never be resolved as "We'll cut back", because soon or later, it won't last.

This topic isn't as helpful as you think it might be. Good feedback would be expressing that you are not satisfied with the current design choices overall because you are a female playing this game and you feel alienated and that you would like to have more options to be dressed more refined. Instead what you have done is tried to remain anonymous with your gender and make it hard to be clear on what you are as a demographic (If you are just "white knighting" or if you have a legitimate concern.) Your topic isn't clear on your goals, you're just posing food for thought and it's going to go nowhere.

Where did I say they should outright change something? Yes, I have my own personal wants, but I'm by no means saying 'this is what I want so you must do it'. I made a discussion thread, specifically saying I was wondering what the majority of the playerbase thought. I mentioned gear, but I mentioned several other points and my main concern is how the dev team are, and will in the future, deal with female avatars. I'm talking about sexism, not just 'sexy gear'. I don't want more options to dress refined, and I never said that's what I wanted. In complete honesty you seem to have missed the point of what I'm even talking about, I know it was a long post with many points so I can't blame you. I personally want equality, not more or less of anything.

lol, these huge responses are making this seem like it's a huge deal... it really isn't but sorry, I just don't like it when people imply I said something, when I didn't

I can appreciate that you don't like the post or the method. Honestly, I just wondered if anyone felt the same way, and wanted to show the dev team this is an issue for some people.

The Tags in this thread are amazing.

Also Laiferr the one from HCC with Lorelai?

lol, I didn't even know this forum had tags, so I had no idea what to put in there! Some of the auto-entered/suggested ones were quite hilarious though. And yes, I am (was??) In the Corps!

[Rhomagus]

I'm going to be honest here, I like a little sexy in my games. I agree with some of the previous comments about the reality of sexism not only in anime but in Japanese culture as well. I've been long tired of constantly hearing of people's negative feelings toward sexism in various parties of society. The reality is you can't over sexualize males because to a large part of the population, the male form is not a sex symbol. Women were created to be inherently sexy in order to attract mates and men were evolved to seek after those mates. We can dance around our evolved sensibilities all we want to, but understanding this fact does not make it any less true. I understand our need to place ourselves above all that but it doesn't change reality.

Additionally, there is a vast number of societies in the world (Many Latin cultures for example) in which objectification and cat calling is normalized. If you don't get whistles from guys on the street, you start to think there is something wrong. Various societies throughout time have been seen as sexualizing Women because that is the role of the gender (eg: to be sought after). I find IRL that a majority of the women I know revel in being gawked at. Personally, I think it is just a part of nature.

I think I take more issue with the fact that this comes up so often because America is still such a puritan state. There is nothing wrong with being sexy. If you want to choose not to partake in, then I can see facilities to turn off certain movements or replace certain gears on the client-side but not to be removed from the game entirely.
If you honestly have that much issue with being surrounded by lightly clothed attractive females who are "oversexed", btw, I suggest you stay away from TV shows, movies, High schools, Colleges, Malls, every video game and anime convention across the nation, and all of southern California. Surely, all of these places must also offend you as they also contain this material of which we are speaking.


http://www.jessicanigriofficial.com/

Trust me... she isn't objectified she is empowered and personally, If I could put someone in that outfit in FFXIV... I would.

Just my 2 cents.

I don't see what's so empowering about that honestly. Should I advocate for her election campaign as governor of California because she has a good body? Should I be more inclined to take financial advice from her because she's pretty? Should I take into account her opinions on the growing income gap of the rich and poor because her skin is soft? Should I take her observations of planetary movements seriously because her boobs jiggle better in a push up bra? Should I expect her to move a 400 pound boulder with her bare hands because of her stunning eyes?

The only way this empowers her is that there are people willing to throw money her way because of her beauty. With that money she can allocate resources according to her preferences, but at the end of the day, this in and of itself creates an invisible ceiling. The same goes for all other genders, races, and creeds. Romney has more personal wealth than Obama but that didn't get him the presidency. The truth is that the three aspects; beauty, wealth, and power, may be related to a degree but correlation is not causation.

If you feel that money = power or that sex = power then you'd be inclined to think that she is empowered. I'd rather live in a world where her opinions and merits are objectively scrutinized rather than her body objectified.

This doesn't mean that she isn't capable of intellectual pursuits or that she doesn't have viable opinions on matters of importance but her looks shouldn't make me take them more seriously. If she posts anonymously on the internet and her positions aren't as well supported as her bra there's no reason I should take her more seriously or give her any more power, than another person whether that be an overweight male or a flat chested and gawky female nerd.

I think what Laiferr has a problem with is introducing an emphasis on sexuality unnecessarily, as do I.

The game should still be fun without boob physics and short skirts. Alternatively, if I were a female, I shouldn't be worried about being treated differently because I'm forced into looking a certain way.

Laiferr makes a great point here in regard to the crafting Coatees. Why is it the males can have a formal look while still being respectable, while the females are forced into an outfit that overly emphasizes their erogenous zones for the same crafting stats. This is why vanity slots should be implemented. For those that like the look, fine keep them. For those that are uncomfortable with it, their gameplay shouldn't be altered at the sacrifice of personal dignity. We don't require Hillary Clinton, Angela Merkel, or Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner to wear revealing clothing in order for them to hold public office nor should we hold that requirement for women to 'have power' in Eorzea.

I think Laiferr has made her point very well. She's all for the option of revealing clothing for those that want it, but she's not supportive of the low brow direction that it may take in regards to future art direction or unwanted advances by male characters in game. I personally agree with her and if the development team is going out of it's way to create sexualized material it's more likely to attract that atmosphere and repel female gamers that don't want to be thrust into that atmosphere.

I'd rather play a game where all races and genders feel free to be themselves.

This comment makes me a little sad, because what you have described is the core of feminism - but there is so much stigma attached to the word feminist these days that people who agree with the values (such as yourself) don't want to self-identify that way.

I feel a lot of what I would respond with has already been said by others (Ryuko's comment on page four in particular). The important thing for me is having options (breast size, fanservice gear vs practical gear, etc), and not being disrespected for selecting any particular option. Final Fantasy MMOs have always made me feel like my female character can be just as badass as any male character. If that ever changed, it would be a sad day for me, but I'm not getting the sense that it will.

I'll finish with this...

Empowered: Even if I choose to wear 'sexy' gear once in a while or decide to go with larger breasts, my character isn't defined by these things, and I don't feel demeaned because everything else about my character, from my battle poses to (most of) my regular battle gear, is designed for usefulness and not for looks.

Objectified: Everything about the character is designed first and foremost to look sexy, from gear to emotes to battle poses. I cannot even take the character seriously, because she's cheesecake with battle mechanics attached. See Tera for some really good examples.

I'd like to be treated with respect, in game or in real life, and I feel that I am in Final Fantasy XIV.

It's unfortunate that feminism has become stigmatized for putting an over emphasis on female rights over male rights even if that wasn't its original intention. I consider myself an egalitarian rather than a feminist. During the rise of feminism the word was essential to call attention to the female plight. I personally think the word should be replaced with egalitarianism in the modern era, as it doesn't have a gender bias to begin with. There are people who identify with feminism that argue from a sexually biased perspective and cause more harm than good to it. I think what people mean to say when their claim they are not feminists nowadays is that they are egalitarian. I also think a lot of feminists make egalitarian arguments and come from that perspective but the word in and of itself is superfluous when thinking about equal rights. The word should be used when considering gender specific rights and issues though such as reproductive rights and medical issues.

I agree and I think Final Fantasy XIV has actually done a great job in this regard. Merlwyb Bloefhiswyn is a prime example. Her merits as a leader aren't based on her sexuality. The only time her sexuality is taken into consideration is during her speech when a detractor of hers yells a gender specific insult at her. Even with that we are quickly reminded that she demands respect because of her ability not because of her gender and the detractors are made to look foolish.

She doesn't use her sexuality as an advantage nor does her immediate company call attention to the fact that she's busting out of the top of her pea coat.

I think that's what balances Merlwyb. There have been obvious references by the community to her bust but I think the core of her character is still recognized by her commanding presence.

Regardless, when it comes to player choice, I still think players should have vanity options, specifically regarding the coatees.

[strallaalaa]

not to be the male that derails this or comes off way sexist but equality don't exist on this planet ...we have people fighting for it but lets not kid ourselves it's a fight to not be equal but to be part of the unequality. your not fighting for the end of money and classes, your fighting for your right to be in a spot that replaces another in a world made with very few spaces in it. you want your right to be better then other people and that isn't equality. don't get me wrong it's still a step in right direction but it's a slow one that still ruins lives as yours gets better. if it's not a fight for all races, sexes, religions, states, countries and people to do as they please freely and be one together (currahee if you will)then your not fighting for equality. that is my thought on the whole thing tied up in a bow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spIrhYfwi5c

[Wyyote]

Anyone else feel like creating and wearing their Darklight Corselet in real life right now?

It's cold here though - might be a bit ni...

On second thought, let's just stick to the thread topic.

[Colvin]

I don't see what's so empowering about that honestly. Should I advocate for her election campaign as governor of California because she has a good body?

incidentally Stormy Daniels considered running for office and the number of supporters she had would have given her a good run. She only couldnt because of the lack of financial backing.

I think that deciding your vote opinion on what someone wears speaks more to the inadaquacy of your "book" vs "cover" conception than anything else. I'm not sure about the edification of making an argument in a thread about "Sexism" followed up by saying you wouldnt vote for someone because of how they dress...

Not that there hasn't been quite a bit of Semantical Injection since this conversation began.