Same Sex Marriage

[Quesse]

Typical western-world people thinking that they are the only culture on earth...

SE has to take all markets into account. To the proponents of the idea, it may be a nifty addition, but to the opponents, it could be a deal-breaker and jeopardize future sales of the entire franchise.

IMO, the safest thing to do is if they just didn't put a marriage system in at all (let's face it, MMO marriages are equal parts cute, creepy, and meaningless).

Also completely agree.

[rina_inverse]

sigh, we deviate too much from the topic

oh well, since someone brought it, this topic has nothing to do personal sexual orientation
this topic is now about the decrease the value of marriage in modern society

Turning a blind eye on all "hot topics" isn't exactly a good way to evolve either

I don't want my fun to be spoiled, but come on. I'm more irritated by the know-it-alls in random parties than anything else in this game, including Gobbues, jumping or grass. . . .

is this about me, since I dont get it

[Xenor]

Same sex marriage does not bring any drama in the game. There are already gay players and gay characters and straight players playing together with their straight SO who happens to play a character of the same gender. Having same sex marriage in game doesn't make anyone gay nor does it force anyone into being gay in game. It also doesn't affect any straight person playing this game in any way (other than them being able to marry their SOs in game even when their character is the same gender they are).

The only reason anyone would have any problem at all with this would be them being homophobes, and that's just something they'll have to deal with on a personal level.

Exactly. What about those guys playing miqo'tes because they like looking at big boobs? They won't be able to marry their real life wives in-game all because of some outdated block. On the other hand we'll have gay people marrying their real life partners because one of them is playing a female.

I really don't even know why marriage in FFXIV is being linked to the real world at all. Bigots and homophobes aren't people I wish to play with anyway so the sooner they go play Pokemon or something the better.

Could you imagine the outrage if SE said they aren't going to allow black characters because it might offend racists? So why disallow homosexuality just because it might offend homophobes?

[Kallera]

I think it should be added. To those complaining about cyber bulling I offer this.

There are some parts of the world that bully redheads, should they be removed to improve sales? That online gaming has a population of ne'er do wells isn't something new, and its no reason to not innovate. The folks that complain of "it haz teh ghey" have their own failing, not the game.

[Nuinn]

sigh, we deviate too much from the topic

oh well, since someone brought it, this topic has nothing to do personal sexual orientation
this topic is now about the decrease the value of marriage in modern society




is this about me, since I dont get it

Well you said you didn't want your fun to be spoiled, even though that might make you seem cowardish, to paraphrase. That's what I was referring to. . . .

[Psion]

I approve of equal marriage rights for same-sex couples.

One common thing I see people say is that it will cause some people to unsubscribe, and hurt SE's bottom line. This one is a commonly seen argument, but I'd like to point out a couple things. First off, if someone gets upset over this, then they often are the type of person who's easily offended by anything, and would have avoided/unsubscribed FFXIV eventually anyways. This game certainly isn't for the delicate of moral constitution; it's got booze, prostitution, swearing, murder, animal torture, and more. The type of people easily offended by same-sex marriage are often also offended by these as well. The whole point is, these people really weren't a good fit anyways and would have probably left.

Another counterargument is the community of FFXIV. If people are easily offended by this, do you really want these people in your community anyways? FFXIV has one of the best attitudes anywhere in an MMORPG, with people helping each other out and generally not being dicks to each other, with the rare exception. Heck, people in this game tend to become really pissed when another person acts like a jerk simply because it's so rare. It's an actual slap in the face when it actually occurs. Is a few more subscribers that probably won't stick around anyways worth the cost to the closeness of our community? I argue that it is not, not when such a loss would cause a far greater loss to subscription numbers.

Also, in the US at least, gay marriage rights have been increasing in popularity. Just this year, 2 new states voted in laws allowing same-sex marriage, the first time ever it has passed through popular vote. A third vetoed a ban on it, also by popular vote. We even have an openly gay senator now. Now, the US isn't exactly the worst offender for gay rights, but it's hardly a bastion of equality in the world, and equal rights for gays are increasing in popularity, not decreasing. I would say it would be far wiser to allow same-sex marriage in game, as it might actually cause an increase in subscriptions as well as lots of publicity. Remember skyrim? Remember how it allowed same sex marriage, yet had record breaking sales? That was a pretty darn sucky game, yet it certainly didn't suffer a hit to sales because it allowed you to marry someone of the same sex. Now what makes you think an illustrious company like square enix will take a hit because of this?

Other people I've seen have said to just role play if you want it that badly. This is pretty much a slap in the face. Do you have kids, or know any? Have any of them ever asked if you could get them some ice cream? Now, i want you to find a few kids, and buy ice cream for a couple of them in plain sight of the rest, and tell the remainder to pretend you bought them ice cream. I can guarantee you that they will cry about the unfairness of it, and you may or may not be murdered by any passing adults who saw that little exchange. There's no substitute for the real deal. You either give the candy to everyone, or no one gets it, because to give it to some while waving it in the face of others, even though you could have given it to them as well, is cruelty. plain and simple.

Finally, I will say this. Final Fantasy to me has always been about stories that teach you good morals. Goodness always prevails, be kind to others, protect the weak, that sort of thing. One of the main themes you see in Final Fantasy is that often times, you encounter someone who seems "evil" to the character, yet turns out to be a good friend, or at least has good reasons for acting the way they do. Remember basch? Turns out he wasn't a bad guy at all! Remember Gabranth? He wasn't evil so much as emotionally unbalanced. Or what about Shadow, the heartless killer who turned out to have a heart after all? What about Cat Sith in FF7? A lot of times in the story you meet someone shady, but your snap judgement of the character turns out to be totally false. Final Fantasy has always been about teaching people to look past a person's outer flaws and look to the simple fact that deep down, we're all people and we all want to be loved and understood, not feared. How can we have such a recurring message appear in the games yet hypocritically turn a blind eye to the unequal treatment of gays? Hasn't the resounding message of Final Fantasy always been about love prevailing, no matter the odds? Hasn't it always been about learning to accept others for who they are, instead of focusing on your own narrow worldview? How then, can we as players, and SE as a company, accept a game where certain couples aren't allowed to prove their love?

Why do you think the crystals always appear so often in the entire series? It is because they are a metaphor for life itself. Enormous and beautiful, they banish the darkness. Their countless facets shine forth light in all its hues, and they bring harmony and magic to the worlds they inhabit. They aren't just physical objects, but a representation of ourselves and all life. We all are like the faces of the crystal, each of us with our own personalities, our own talents, our own loves. But despite our differences, the fact remains: we are all but different faces of the same source, and to reject others because they have a different light is akin to shattering that crystal to dust. You not only destroy others, but you destroy a piece of yourself, because we are all connected.

I ask both of the players and the people of Square Enix to welcome same-sex couples by giving them the same rights you give everyone else, in the name of the Crystals and the Life they represent.

[BazzaBrute]

I don't see the issue with same-sex marriages, I can see where they are coming from with different cultures having different views, but in the end, these are avatars, fictional characters, they should be able to marry who they want.

[rina_inverse]

I approve of equal marriage rights for same-sex couples.

One common thing I see people say is that it will cause some people to unsubscribe, and hurt SE's bottom line. This one is a commonly seen argument, but I'd like to point out a couple things. First off, if someone gets upset over this, then they often are the type of person who's easily offended by anything, and would have avoided/unsubscribed FFXIV eventually anyways. This game certainly isn't for the delicate of moral constitution; it's got booze, prostitution, swearing, murder, animal torture, and more. The type of people easily offended by same-sex marriage are often also offended by these as well. The whole point is, these people really weren't a good fit anyways and would have probably left.

Another counterargument is the community of FFXIV. If people are easily offended by this, do you really want these people in your community anyways? FFXIV has one of the best attitudes anywhere in an MMORPG, with people helping each other out and generally not being dicks to each other, with the rare exception. Heck, people in this game tend to become really pissed when another person acts like a jerk simply because it's so rare. It's an actual slap in the face when it actually occurs. Is a few more subscribers that probably won't stick around anyways worth the cost to the closeness of our community? I argue that it is not, not when such a loss would cause a far greater loss to subscription numbers.

Also, in the US at least, gay marriage rights have been increasing in popularity. Just this year, 2 new states voted in laws allowing same-sex marriage, the first time ever it has passed through popular vote. A third vetoed a ban on it, also by popular vote. We even have an openly gay senator now. Now, the US isn't exactly the worst offender for gay rights, but it's hardly a bastion of equality in the world, and equal rights for gays are increasing in popularity, not decreasing. I would say it would be far wiser to allow same-sex marriage in game, as it might actually cause an increase in subscriptions as well as lots of publicity. Remember skyrim? Remember how it allowed same sex marriage, yet had record breaking sales? That was a pretty darn sucky game, yet it certainly didn't suffer a hit to sales because it allowed you to marry someone of the same sex. Now what makes you think an illustrious company like square enix will take a hit because of this?

Other people I've seen have said to just role play if you want it that badly. This is pretty much a slap in the face. Do you have kids, or know any? Have any of them ever asked if you could get them some ice cream? Now, i want you to find a few kids, and buy ice cream for a couple of them in plain sight of the rest, and tell the remainder to pretend you bought them ice cream. I can guarantee you that they will cry about the unfairness of it, and you may or may not be murdered by any passing adults who saw that little exchange. There's no substitute for the real deal. You either give the candy to everyone, or no one gets it, because to give it to some while waving it in the face of others, even though you could have given it to them as well, is cruelty. plain and simple.

Finally, I will say this. Final Fantasy to me has always been about stories that teach you good morals. Goodness always prevails, be kind to others, protect the weak, that sort of thing. One of the main themes you see in Final Fantasy is that often times, you encounter someone who seems "evil" to the character, yet turns out to be a good friend, or at least has good reasons for acting the way they do. Remember basch? Turns out he wasn't a bad guy at all! Remember Gabranth? He wasn't evil so much as emotionally unbalanced. Or what about Shadow, the heartless killer who turned out to have a heart after all? What about Cat Sith in FF7? A lot of times in the story you meet someone shady, but your snap judgement of the character turns out to be totally false. Final Fantasy has always been about teaching people to look past a person's outer flaws and look to the simple fact that deep down, we're all people and we all want to be loved and understood, not feared. How can we have such a recurring message appear in the games yet hypocritically turn a blind eye to the unequal treatment of gays? Hasn't the resounding message of Final Fantasy always been about love prevailing, no matter the odds? Hasn't it always been about learning to accept others for who they are, instead of focusing on your own narrow worldview? How then, can we as players, and SE as a company, accept a game where certain couples aren't allowed to prove their love?

Why do you think the crystals always appear so often in the entire series? It is because they are a metaphor for life itself. Enormous and beautiful, they banish the darkness. Their countless facets shine forth light in all its hues, and they bring harmony and magic to the worlds they inhabit. They aren't just physical objects, but a representation of ourselves and all life. We all are like the faces of the crystal, each of us with our own personalities, our own talents, our own loves. But despite our differences, the fact remains: we are all but different faces of the same source, and to reject others because they have a different light is akin to shattering that crystal to dust. You not only destroy others, but you destroy a piece of yourself, because we are all connected.

I ask both of the players and the people of Square Enix to welcome same-sex couples by giving them the same rights you give everyone else, in the name of the Crystals and the Life they represent.

yep, totally way deviate from the topic

I don't see the issue with same-sex marriages, I can see where they are coming from with different cultures having different views, but in the end, these are avatars, fictional characters, they should be able to marry who they want.

Unfortunately, some people take thing way seriously, which could ruin the fun for other people.
I just dont want that to happen

[Angelas]

Well you said you didn't want your fun to be spoiled, even though that might make you seem cowardish, to paraphrase. That's what I was referring to. . . .

No reason to engage this person honestly, its a ring around the rosey game

*meaning the person you were responding to

[Mihana]

I support same-sex marriage, it doesn't bother me but I can see where they're going with this... Whether or not it's something they'd want to without a doubt include there's a lot of fine print stuff to deal with. Think about it like the contests, each country has their own set of rules and requirements. In some cultures same-sex marriages, even relationships, are heavily shunned and if I'm correct, outlawed. This might be unrelated somewhat but look at stuff regarding some FPS game that came out in one country. I can't remember the name of it but there were these certain pictures put up in a virtual bathroom that got enough fuss because it was against religious beliefs the creators actually had to pull those maps for awhile just to fix it.

SE is only trying to play it safe, being a Japanese-based company, same-sex marriages generally aren't allowed in their country. It's okay, I think, but not really allowed. Putting that into the game like this, especially when their largest playerbase is situated in Japan, could cost them subscribers whereas not allowing it probably won't.

They're not saying you can't hold your own wedding, but they won't officially support or hold one either. And having official support for it may make it more difficult to release in other countries where the very thought of same-sex relationships is banned.

EDIT: And another thing to consider. Say it's banned in a certain society or country, and SE release the option to wed the same-sex. Because of this, their game isn't allowed in that country. Well, now also view that they previously had their game in that country. They'll now have to deal with legal nonsense and may even have to issue a refund or worse since those players can't play their game anymore.

So while it is something I want to see happen I can understand their hesitation to make it officially available.