A Socio-Cultural Analysis of Garlean Genocide *spoilers*

[Catapult]

It is probably worth noting the following about Ifrit:

He does not view himself as the one true god. Yes, he does consider himself as god, but he is also very aware of his bounds and how he is able to manifest. He is thus rather protective of his devotees. Simultaneously, he does not want to have to compete with other primals for Eorzea's crystal supply in order to remain corporeal. He wants to be King and sole manifested god, not the one true god. He knows you can't simply kill a primal and attempts to truly do so would drain the land of aether and thus defeat the purpose of being king of said land.

On the Garuda front, she is indeed a little more selfish than Ifrit. Likewise, she is interested in self-preservation, but her focus is on freedom rather than dominance. The Ixal seem to worship her for that aerial freedom her presence offers.


On the Garlemald front, we should probably also recall that Nael van Darnus himself is an heir to the remnant of the Allagan Empire. The house of Darnus has stood watch over many of their secrets for generations, which is where the Meteor project came from if I recall correctly.

And then there is Gaius van Baelsar, who is unnaturally powerful in his own right as well. So much so that... well I'll just drop this here again like I did in the LOC forum:

^Ultima Weapon, strongly resembling Gaius van Baelsar.

No, there is definitely more to Garlemald than 50 years of rapid technological expansion. I do believe they know far more about the nature of the world, its eras and its aether than we give them credit for. The country itself may easily fall victim to something greater again.


EDIT:

Oh, and this is for the OP:

LOC feedback (I believe from the German side more than others) has confirmed that they have deliberately used Roman military structures for the Garlean Empire. In Rome, Legates were of a senatorial rank or higher. I believe you are TOTALLY on the money on that front.

[Catapult]

Here we go. I got the German LOC forum post for you and have done a translation:

Update vom (09/07/2011)
Update from 9th July 2011

Im Deutschen ist die Rede von der XIV. und VII. Kohorte, welche von Gaius und Nael angeführt werden. Nun, da hab ich mich gleich etwas gewundert, denn eine Kohorte umfässt um die 500 Soldaten (Eigentlich 1/10 der jeweiligen Legion, ich nehm einfach mal die goldene Mitte, unzwar 5.000).
In German we are talking about the XIVth and VIIth Cohort, which are led by Gaius and Nael. Well, that surprised me a little, because a Cohort encompasses around 500 soldiers (actually one tenth of the respective legion, of which I'm taking the golden average of about 5,000)

Im Englischen ist aber die Rede von der XIV. und der VII. Legion, welche wie oben erwähnt um die 5.000 Mann stark wäre.
But in English, we are talking about the XIVth and VIIth Legion, which as mentioned above comes to around 5000-men strong.

Ich finde es wichtig zu wissen, ob Gaius und Nael jetzt bestenfalls kleinere Hundertschaften anführen oder Tausende...
I find that it would be important to know if Gaius and Nael are actually leading hundereds or thousands...

Vielleicht sollte man sich diesbezüglich einig werden. Ich stelle weder die englische Übersetzung noch die deutsche in frage, ich weiß nicht welche davon akkurat ist und bei welcher untertrieben oder übertrieben wurde. Ich bin einfach der Meinung das dies einer Klärung bedarf =)
Maybe these terms should be aligned. I'm not calling the English or German translation into question, I just don't know which of them is accurate and which is over- or under-exaggerated.

Localiser's response:

Endlich haben wir die Übersetzungen für den Versions-Patch 1.19 soweit fertig, dass wir uns wieder um eure Meinungen im Forum kümmern können.
We're finally sufficiently ready with the translations for patch 1.19 that we can once again get to worrying about your thoughts on the forum.

Im Deutschen haben wir uns für Kohorten entschieden, weil wir die Namensgebung zum einen von der der „Legion der Unsterblichen“ abheben wollten, und zum anderen die Größenordnung einer Legion für etwas übertrieben hielten.
In German, we decided on the term Cohort, because we wanted to on one hand retain the terminology for the "Legion of the Immortals" ("Immortal Flames" in English), and on the other hand because we considered the dimensions of a Legion a little over the top.

Letztendlich muss man doch mal ganz nüchtern die Zwischensequenzen betrachten, in denen maximal zehn garleische Soldaten samt Kommandanten auf einmal auf dem Bildschirm erscheinen. Solange man niemals die ganze Macht des Gegners grafisch dargestellt bekommt, wissen weder die Eorzäer noch wir Übersetzer, wie groß die tatsächliche Truppenstärke ist, die den Prätoren oder gar dem gesamten Garleischen Kaiserreich unterstehen.
Lastly, one has to also very carefully observe the cutscenes, in which at most ten Garlean soldiers inclusive of commanders will appear at once on screen. As long as one never graphically sees the full might of the enemy, neither the Eorzeans or us localisers can know how strong the force truly is, which stand beneath the Praetors (Legates) or even the entire Garlean Empire.

Wir haben uns auch bei den Kommandanten für die Bezeichnung als „Prätor“ entschieden, weil es den politischen Aspekt des Amtes, das die beiden ehrfurchtgebietenden Herren bekleiden, ebenfalls widerspiegelt.
Bei den Rufnamen haben wir uns ebenfalls etwas künstlerische Freiheit erlaubt, so heißt der den Amerikanern als „Weißer Rabe“ bekannte Nael van Darnus bei uns beispielsweise „Silberschwinge“.
For the commanders we also decided on the term "Praetor", because it also reflects the political role of the office that the two respect-demanding officers fulfil.
For the individual titles we have also allowed ourselves a little artistic freedom, meaning what the Americans know as "White Raven" Nael van Darnus is for us the "Silver Wing."

Es kommt bei den verschiedenen Sprachversion immer zu kleineren Abweichungen und wir möchten euch bitten, diese zu akzeptieren - wohl wissend, dass wir bei der Namensgebung nach bestem Wissen und Gewissen handeln.
With different languages there will always be slight deviations so we ask that you please accept these - in good knowledge that we work with best knowledge and understanding in the nomenclature.

PS
Im der japanischen Version ist übrigens nur ganz neutral von einem Kommandanten einer militärischen Einheit die Rede. Analogien zum uns bekannten römischen Kaiserreich wurden erst in die übersetzten Versionen eingearbeitet.
PS
In the Japanese version they only speak neutrally of a commander of a military unit. Analogues to the Roman Empire were first built in for the translated versions.

So there you have it, a little background that shows they are comparing the Garlean Empire to the Roman Empire, even if the exact way they do it differs between language versions. They wouldn't do this if it created complications for the underlying lore.

They also later adjusted the term "Cohort" back over to "Legion" in order to facilitate dividing up the Legion in to Cohorts.

[Jacien]

Ferney would be proud to see the study of lore going on in this thread.

I'm in love with this game's lore a bit too much, lol.

[Azurymber]

It is probably worth noting the following about Ifrit:

He does not view himself as the one true god. Yes, he does consider himself as god, but he is also very aware of his bounds and how he is able to manifest. He is thus rather protective of his devotees. Simultaneously, he does not want to have to compete with other primals for Eorzea's crystal supply in order to remain corporeal. He wants to be King and sole manifested god, not the one true god. He knows you can't simply kill a primal and attempts to truly do so would drain the land of aether and thus defeat the purpose of being king of said land.

On the Garuda front, she is indeed a little more selfish than Ifrit. Likewise, she is interested in self-preservation, but her focus is on freedom rather than dominance. The Ixal seem to worship her for that aerial freedom her presence offers.


On the Garlemald front, we should probably also recall that Nael van Darnus himself is an heir to the remnant of the Allagan Empire. The house of Darnus has stood watch over many of their secrets for generations, which is where the Meteor project came from if I recall correctly.

And then there is Gaius van Baelsar, who is unnaturally powerful in his own right as well. So much so that... well I'll just drop this here again like I did in the LOC forum:

^Ultima Weapon, strongly resembling Gaius van Baelsar.

No, there is definitely more to Garlemald than 50 years of rapid technological expansion. I do believe they know far more about the nature of the world, its eras and its aether than we give them credit for. The country itself may easily fall victim to something greater again.


EDIT:

Oh, and this is for the OP:

LOC feedback (I believe from the German side more than others) has confirmed that they have deliberately used Roman military structures for the Garlean Empire. In Rome, Legates were of a senatorial rank or higher. I believe you are TOTALLY on the money on that front.

You're right on all of it ^^ thanks

[Duuude007]

I've spoken about this theory before, but nothing became of it. So I plopped the wolf's head on the raven and...
well... you tell me if I'm getting close, lol...

[Aistalia]

Awesome job, great read!

I've always thought the same, Nael van Darnus symbolizes the nihilism that humankind experiences when they discover new values, or witness dramatic changes in their social structure or everyday life (see: the technology and warfare rise in Garlemard).
Darnus, as perfect example of Übermensch, like the philosopher Nietzsche would say, feels like demolishing a whole scheme of values and creating new ones. How? By power. (Wille zur Macht).
The old values are the "old" gods, as the Twelve, or the Eikons for the beast tribes. In his logic, they are not necessary anymore. Not even technology is (when he decides to control Dalamud himself after we destroy the lunar transmitter), and this is another common point with Nietzsche's philosophy, he always criticized Positivism, which, in 1800 exhalted naïvely every form of science. The world needs new values to stop the cycle of nihilism.
Another philosopher, Martin Heidegger, explains very well the link between technique (we would say technology) and nihilism.

Of course this is my personal read, those philosophical elements aren't just thought experiments, but authors I quoted wrote those consideration while witnessing the changes of manking from the 50s of the 1800 (Nietzsche) and until the ~70s of 1900 (Heidegger). The history of Eorzea is not that different from the real world, from this point of view.

[Ramesses]

I love this thread... thought-provoking, analytical and exhibits powerful cognitive thinking... interesting read and I love it.

Thanks to Azury for starting this; and to Fatestorm and Catapult for the translations. The lore behind the Garleans, their social structure and how they have an almost fanatical approach to eradicating everything to do with foreign religion has always fascinated me very deeply.

Right from the time Yaeko Sato mentioned something in an interview (back in summer of 2010) about Eorzean city-states and the imperial structure of Garlemald, I deduced that they were based off the Roman empire. That they are intolerant to the gods in general also acts to imbue their own emperor with more divine status; which is important for holding together an empire of that magnitude.

It also reinforces the idea that there is something very sinister about how they emerged into a super power within one generation... which again leads to a discussion a while back as to how Solus zos Galvus got his hands on the secret of magitek technology.

Cant find that thread... but I remember us discussing how he was either a rogue "god" or Banshin in human form (Odin?), or was being manipulated by one of them. Point is, when the Garlean empire was founded, he likely gathered around him very capable (and wealthy) like-minded members of the patrician class (or nobility) who all had powerful artifacts or secrets from the Allagan empire... or maybe from other "unknown" gods/goddesses that are opposed to the twelve.

When we look at real life history during the Roman empire, Julius Caeser was shrewd enough to cultivate to his side the extremely wealthy Crassius (the "Warren Buffett" of Rome at the time), and Ledipus (a highly efficient military tactician) in his quest for power... including the legends and myths that he had some "divine items" which sustained the military might of his soldiers.

In reality, Caeser's legions were magnificent on the battlefield because the troops loved his charisma, were well-fed & healthy (due to Crassius' funds) and he had brilliant generals (himself, Ledipus, Mark Anthony etc). So although Caesar came from one of the oldest aristocratic families in Rome at the time, their old money was beginning to dwindle, especially after his father died when he was only 15 or 16... and it was up to him to regain the social status of his family. Thus why he cleverly selected powerful men who would eventually help him rule Rome.

When we look at Garlemald, even though a lot of their history is still shrouded in mystery, we can see some loose similarities in how some ruthless Rome-like power struggles were enacted... let's not forget that Zolus will likely have some heirs or heiress of his own (all jostling for power?) including some other Legatus that want to carve their own destinies.

This is where I like Aistali's idea of Darnus' nihilism but I think what Nael really wants is to re-establish the world onto a clean slate because he has the knowledge of something that he staunchly believes in... perhaps he figures that if he can hasten the end of the Umbral era, he can start a new astral age and rebuild the Allagan empire. Or perhaps Dalamud is using him to enact revenge on the Twelve for imprisoning him since the (4th?) era...(yep, I've definitely been agreeing with people that Dalamud is an ancient prison)

His character is very VERY well written and maintains a lot of mystery (got to a point that I thought he might even be Travanchet, the strange mage that appears at the start of the Limsa storyline). Sure, in the end, our good ol'chap Nael tried to burn the house down... but what I do like about him though is his ruthless uncompromising attitude towards attaining power. Which is why in some strange way, we continue to adore him and wish he'd make a come back. He's definitely worthy of having been a Final Fantasy super boss.

In conclusion, I really can't wait to start the 2.0 storylines regarding the empire... House Darnus might have new successors who want to re-establish the Allagan empire. Or the emperor might have a cunning daughter who is a Legatus and wants the throne but has older brothers; heck maybe even Gaius might be a son of the emperor... I'm totally eager to see the new plot twists that will come our way.

*Edited to add views regarding Darnus*

[Zantetsuken]

This whole thread is a great read.

I agree that the White Raven is atheist, however it might be more accurate to call him a theophobe.

His (and we can assume the whole Empire's) fear/hatred for religion - whether Primals or the Twelve - has driven him to complete nihilistic madness.

Strangely enough, the zeal for, and 'worship' he lavishes on Dalamud (a Magitek construct, likely) seems to dwarf any other faith in Eorzea.

He is too blinded by arrogance to realize that his inverted anti-religion has become a religion far more zealous than anything he might fear or despise.



SE did a great job with the 1.0 storyline, we can only guess where it goes from here~

[Riv]

Did you have to write a paper for school or something?

[Azurymber]

Did you have to write a paper for school or something?

No, I spent the last week going through every cutscene, and reading a bunch of stuff, so that I can update my lore guide for 2.0 so new players will have an idea what the lore was like in 1.0.

And it got me thinking about how messed up Eorzea actually is. Like none of the nations are ideal or 'good'. They all have really serious flaws. Like Gridania comes off as this nation in tune with the forest and all for peace, but if you look at their history it its full of wars and stuff. Even the grid storyline shows how people in grid fear wildlings and how the padjal have to kinda deceive them to avoid a panic.

Eorzea is full of a lot of really flawed but realistic nations. Which I find pretty epic compared to most games that just have the token "benevolent leader, evil rebels" thing going on.

Plus I'm really into behavioural psychology, and i have a major in poli sci and economics. So this stuff just interests me.

My major is in neurosci + psych right now so i don't get to write fun stuff for school often ;x just lots of multiple choice tests ; ;