If SE is taking away my hard work...

[sdegrazi]

all this economics... makes my head hurt

[NoctisUmbra]

Your argument is like saying that any time SE patched content thus far that in some way effected the supply rate or value of a widely-used item, they stole your gil.

My mentioning crafting/gathering isn't about the ease of it. It's about fundamental changes to the way they function. How available will certain mats be with the new gathering mini game? How difficult will it be to craft HQ items? How will materia conversion rates be rebalanced? They are being rebalanced btw.

These are drastically effecting the prices.

If SE simply redenominated like they said tomorrow, changing nothing else in the current version, the smartest people would be the ones dropping their prices to about 15-25% and enjoying increased profits while people struggle for a few days to get over the psychological effect of lower numbers. This would no doubt last only a few days, as others undercut them and so on so forth until they get to 10% and stop, because going lower means loss and anything higher means gain.

The economy in this video game is an incredibly dumbed down version of real life where supply/demand is paramount in the workings of all prices.

[Ferth]

Sorry but you are incorrect.

The game will be drastically different, but you, nore even Yoshi knows all the gil intake amounts. They miss things, we find ways to earn and such. Crafting/Gathering is infact a lot easier now, so I am not sure what you're talking about with this.

I feel like you're just going to try use redenomination as an excuse each time when it is irrelevant to user controlled situations.

Because what you are talking about in a real world situation would have affected all products and services, HERE IT IS NOT.

The price of X Sword in the Ward now will NOT be 1/10th in ARR, and it has HIGH chances it never will, There are so many arguments that prove this.

This effectively means that the balance out rate remainder will be the lost value of your gil.

It does not matter about HOW people get their Gil such, just know PEOPLE WILL.

If you go into ARR with 1m and in 1 month you make it to 2m,
Item at 10m goes to 5m but then goes to 3m before its being bought.

You before COULD buy it, but now its balanced out at 30% of its original value, thus you lost 20% of the value of your gil, but you can earn it back easily enough in that the balance out rate hits much faster than the reduction of the price of an item.

This is what you are not seeing, you are counting on the fact that people WILL be all nice and happy and sell stuff cheaper, you are counting on the fact that people some how think they will treasure their gil and disregarding that people NOW spend money on expensive stuff that causes 300-400% inflation of an item and they STILL purchase it for that amount.

You are all concentrating on the fact that things should deflate in price and ignoring inflation that balances it out. Undercutting will ONLY happen if there is a significant amount of that item, so it is a completely different parameter, look at some Materia lately, many will not be in lots of stock but the price went up and up and and up, in ARR it will go down and the "up" balances this out by reducing the amount it goes down to.

I'm sorry... I can't seriously debate this with you because you aren't representing any real data. Your argument is basically "people are jerks, and shit will be expensive."

But economics doesn't work that way. The only way for items to remain at inflated prices would be for one entity to have sole control over it's pricing. But since many people will be out there trying to sell their items the prices will stabilize at a reasonable price over time.

That price might not be exactly 1/10th but the fear that it will be exorbitant in relative terms is unjustified. Prices are going to fluctuate regardless of redenomination. Hell, they are fluctuating right now and the redenomination hasn't even happened yet. Markets change. Prices fluctuate based on the supply of a given item compared to the demand for it.

You are arguing from a standpoint as if you are being robbed but you aren't. No one is. BECAUSE WE WILL ALL HAVE THE SAME RELATIVE WEALTH WE HAD BEFORE THE REDENOMINATION. That doesn't mean I think prices are going to be absolutely the same relative to the new wealth... I can't even guarantee prices will be the same tomorrow as they are today.

[NoctisUmbra]

To sum up PV's post;

Gil is currently losing value steadily due to inflation.
The redenomination will increase the value of gil drastically, but inflation will continue to steadily lower it.
Oh, also, people are jerks so they won't let you use your gil at it's new high value until inflation has already lowered it a bit.

Edit: Ferth, your sig basically says it right. Separating those 2 independent points seems to be the most significant obstacle for people to get past.

[whoopeeragon]

Also, I really don't understand why you keep harping about being robbed off your money. You retain the same wealth - not once single small value of your earnings has gone.

Instead, you harp on about market prices? How is that robbing? In that case, if you want to extend it into the same category as 'robbing money', then it is ultimately the PLAYERS who are stealing money from one another. Your argument really makes no sense in regards to SE taking away your money when it in fact the other players.

Loosely, it's like interest rates. Reserve bank lowers interest rates, your mortage/wealth in your account remains the same. BUT it is the BANK'S decision to deal with the interest rates. Are they gonna lower it? Are they gonna do it fast? That is entirely independent from the people who set the initial lower interest rates. The Reserve bank is SE, and the banks are the players.

So I really don't see how you'll fix this. Ultimately it is the playerbase's fault for being greedy for this change - SE can't control the markets without severely limiting it.

[viion]

I'm sorry... I can't seriously debate this with you because you aren't representing any real data. Your argument is basically "people are jerks, and shit will be expensive."

But economics doesn't work that way. The only way for items to remain at inflated prices would be for one entity to have sole control over it's pricing. But since many people will be out there trying to sell their items the prices will stabilize at a reasonable price over time.

That price might not be exactly 1/10th but the fear that it will be exorbitant in relative terms is unjustified. Prices are going to fluctuate regardless of redenomination. Hell, they are fluctuating right now and the redenomination hasn't even happened yet. Markets change. Prices fluctuate based on the supply of a given item compared to the demand for it.

You are arguing from a standpoint as if you are being robbed but you aren't. No one is. BECAUSE WE WILL ALL HAVE THE SAME RELATIVE WEALTH WE HAD BEFORE THE REDENOMINATION. That doesn't mean I think prices are going to be absolutely the same relative to the new wealth... I can't even guarantee prices will be the same tomorrow as they are today.

If you can't debate then your fault, I am telling you why you're wrong just like you think I am wrong, you are not representing any real data, you argument is basically "people are nice and will treat the game with farinesses". If you want to look at it with a blind eye like that.

You clearly state

That price might not be exactly 1/10th

and what I am saying is, if they do not,ANYTHING OVER is a loss. You cant deny that, its impossible im sorry lol. If an item becomes 11% its value, you have LOST ONE PERCENT of wealth, that is fact. That is your real data.

I am not at all saying I am being robbed, by this I can clearly see you're being a complete arrogant jerk because if you read my post you'd see I agree we losing money, I am happy we are and I think its the right thing to do.

It does not matter that everyones wealth is reduced when wealth is only determined by the economic pricing. If your wealth reduce by 90% but global pricing reduces 50%, you are 40% LESS WEALTHY, EVERYONE IS.

And you can argue all day long that prices will reduce but there is a force against that, its called inflation, I am just repeating myself here and you're too arrogant to listen to it and you think prices will keep dropping and no one will earn any gil so their gil value will stay the same, reading about redenomination on wiki doesn't make it fit the purpose.

To sum up PV's post;

Gil is currently losing value steadily due to inflation.
The redenomination will increase the value of gil drastically, but inflation will continue to steadily lower it.
Oh, also, people are jerks so they won't let you use your gil at it's new high value until inflation has already lowered it a bit.

Edit: Ferth, your sig basically says it right. Separating those 2 independent points seems to be the most significant obstacle for people to get past.

You are missing the point, don't be a jackass, I am not saying people jerks, I am saying old habits die hard, people inflate to skyrocket now, and people do things that isnt all fair, EG "You wont be banned for garuda exploit" *everyone exploits it!* and countless other exploits that got patched and people did it anyway because the world is not all fair gain, people will wait their money back from this reduction.

You are losing money, accept that, accept that its a good thing for the game.

To anyone even thinking about conversion rates, PLEASE take your USD and go to a european country (Euros), see how far it takes you and realise how non-wealthy you will be. Conversion rate is meaningless argument.

@Ferth
Your signature also is full of nonsense because it states everyone moving in will have same wealth then you go "well it will take time for the market to stabilize", hang on then, you're saying everyone has same wealth at the start when the market will have not even stabilized to that wealth? So contradictory...

If you can't argue your point, then i don't even know why you're on a forum, just wait until ARR and we will come back and see where the economy is by taking a series of items and seeing what their price reduction ended up being (even a month into game if that makes you feel better...)

[Ferth]

I'm not representing any data because there isn't any data for this argument. All we have is anecdotal evidence from what has happened in the past. That's why futures trading has risk involved, because there are no hard and fast rules about how it works.

There are no facts in your post. There is only speculation on what you think will happen, which as whoopee pointed out doesn't translate into your indignation about being robbed.

All of your arguments still take place in active, fluctuating economies regardless of redenomination. They actually happen in this game's economy already.

Yes, inflation is a problem in MMOs. The redenomination isn't designed to prevent inflation it's just meant to put gil in a better place for the start of the new economy. If you want to argue about inflation ruining the game, argue about that. Ask SE what their plans are to prevent inflation in the future. Don't make fallacious claims about being robbed when you aren't and then tie market instability into your argument as "proof."

Your argument about market pricing being a loss of wealth? THAT HAPPENS NOW. WITHOUT REDENOMINATION. In the past month Touch of Rage IV materia has more than doubled in price. And you know what caused it? 2 weeks of down time where players were less focused on producing materia than they were on killing Atomos.

The redenomination is going to have a significantly smaller impact on pricing in 2.0 compared to the fact that it will be a brand new economy. Things will balance out. And trying to compare those prices to prices in 1.0 is like trying to compare apples with batteries. Furthermore, speculating about those prices right now is a useless endeavor. You don't know what they will be, I don't know what they will be. If you want to be excessively pessimistic about it that's your prerogative. But trying to use your pessimistic view as proof that redenomination is some how robbing you of something doesn't truck.

As for my signature.

Even without the redenomination. Everyone would have the same wealth they have now when moving in to 2.0. And those new economies in 2.0 would still need time to stabilize. Every single point you've made against redenomination would take place whether the redenomination happened or not. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

[Resheph]

Here it goes again ...

Awwww here it goes!

[viion]

I'm not representing any data because there isn't any data for this argument. All we have is anecdotal evidence from what has happened in the past. That's why futures trading has risk involved, because there are no hard and fast rules about how it works.

There are no facts in your post. There is only speculation on what you think will happen, which as whoopee pointed out doesn't translate into your indignation about being robbed.

All of your arguments still take place in active, fluctuating economies regardless of redenomination. They actually happen in this game's economy already.

Yes, inflation is a problem in MMOs. The redenomination isn't designed to prevent inflation it's just meant to put gil in a better place for the start of the new economy. If you want to argue about inflation ruining the game, argue about that. Ask SE what their plans are to prevent inflation in the future. Don't make fallacious claims about being robbed when you aren't and then tie market instability into your argument as "proof."

Your argument about market pricing being a loss of wealth? THAT HAPPENS NOW. WITHOUT REDENOMINATION. In the past month Touch of Rage IV materia has more than doubled in price. And you know what caused it? 2 weeks of down time where players were less focused on producing materia than they were on killing Atomos.

The redenomination is going to have a significantly smaller impact on pricing in 2.0 compared to the fact that it will be a brand new economy. Things will balance out. And trying to compare those prices to prices in 1.0 is like trying to compare apples with batteries. Furthermore, speculating about those prices right now is a useless endeavor. You don't know what they will be, I don't know what they will be. If you want to be excessively pessimistic about it that's your prerogative. But trying to use your pessimistic view as proof that redenomination is some how robbing you of something doesn't truck.

Again, not saying I am being robbed. Learn what robbed means, please...

I do have facts, I have the fact that people will spend considerably more for items than their original value, 200-300 sometimes 400% more. That is fact, we have seen it. We have also seen that people can be greedy and put items up for massive amounts of prices, we have seen this, it is all over, in particular with low level gear. That is fact.

In ARR, you will be able to earn Gil? Fact, will people earn it? Yes i assume so, so that is Fact that global wealth will increase.

I am not saying it is fact that items will not be at 1/10th, I am saying its UNLIKELY, I do not see it happening, based on my arguments.

What is fact is, if you take your 10m to 1m, then an item at 10m goes to 5m, you have lost 4m (if this happens to every single item in the game). That is fact, its common Math, fact its common sense, if you cant comprehend that then this is a lost cause because its so common sense that primary school students would understand this.

I am not arguing about inflation at all, Another proven point you are being arrogant and not at all listening to what I am saying, My argument states inflation is the cause of a higher balance rate. This will not make items rise, it will counteract the decrease value. Again, common sense....

Your argument about market pricing being a loss of wealth? THAT HAPPENS NOW. WITHOUT REDENOMINATION. In the past month Touch of Rage IV materia has more than doubled in price. And you know what caused it? 2 weeks of down time where players were less focused on producing materia than they were on killing Atomos.

You are proving one of my points here and I don't even think you realise it, the price of the Materia doubled, thus people are willing to spend 200% more on that item.

If we go to 1/10th and that item is reduce, it is likely it will only go down to 1/10th of 200% which is 20% of its value, because people are purchasing it for that. So come 2.0 when we all go down to 1/10th but a fair amount of items become in demand, that inflation causes the decrease rate to 20% because people don't mind paying 200% more.

If you are going to argue with me don't reiterate my points lol.

Furthermore, speculating about those prices right now is a useless endeavor.

Right, I guess the whole Stock Market is a complete useless endeavor, no one should predict the future! I am sorry, people do this for a living, people do it all the time with just about everything, people predict, people argue, its massively done in the political system, don't say someone is stupid for doing something that is natural and fine.

If you can't handle someone predicting the future, don't argue about it.

[NoctisUmbra]

Ironically enough you're the one missing the point here PV. Ferth's sig makes more sense than anything else in this thread and very accurately points out the heart of the comprehension problem people seem to be facing - you included, as you pointed out by stating that 'as long as prices settle at anything above 10% people are losing gil'.

A. Everyone has their worth decreased by the same factor. All gil sinks and gil sources are adjusted accordingly. 1 new gil is immediately worth 10 of the old gil. Period. No wealth is lost because wealth is relative.

B. The entire population is moving into a new game with new systems in place that will considerably alter the supply rate and demand of items- a new economy. Prices are expected to fluctuate dynamically across every in game industry, be it ores, wood, food, gear or materia.

Points A and B are independent. They have their own cause and effect. However, going into ARR in our case involves not only B, but A as well.

Therefore prices in ARR will depend on both A and B. As such these prices may end up above 10% of what they are now for some or even all items, but to say that this is a result of A alone is where your fallacy lies.

To put it simply, if an item balances at 15% of what it is now, the extra 5% is due to B, not A. Whatever caused the price to be 15% would have caused the price to be 150% of what it is now if A wasn't in effect.