If someone makes a deadly boss mods type addon for ARR would you use it?

[Wolfie]

Trust me, addons don't make it any easier for casuals and raiding. You can have a HUGE warning with sirens and gigantic text flying at you that says move, and the bad player will still panic if he doesn't know the strategy. Much like a bad "purist" will still fail to move when he fails to see the built in game warnings.

Linking casuals to addons is perhaps one of the more idiotic sentiments that the MMO community has laughed off. First off, the bleeding edge uses addons heavily not only for warnings, but for quality of life improvements. Secondly, most "purists" rarely get to high end content, they simply stand around the hub of their game (SW/Org for WoW, Ul'dah for FFXIV) and complain about "casuals" getting their addon blessed loot. Finally, the argument for and against addons is just another weapon for people to use in order to make themselves feel superior (on both sides of the argument). In other words, making the argument against addons "BECAUSE CASUALZ!" is merely just stoking the fires of your own ego.

Oh I know it's not a valid argument. It's just something that is thrown around here, along with immersion, to dismiss any improvements to the MMO genre in the last 8+ years. Addons making things "easy mode" or being "exploits" are arguments coming from people who have no qualms about stacking a single class (BLM or ARC) to actually literally cheese their way through a poorly balanced encounter.

[Priya]

and certainly you should never read guides or watch videos before trying a fight.

inb4 "Guides ruin my immersion. I want to learn by doing."

Memories~.

You read my mind

You can be the purist who runs completely with no addons or customization. If you're still able to get through content, then good for you.

They aren't an instant win button

This. If you can perform your role at a level your LS finds acceptable without addons, you're free to not use them.

Edit: WHAT? HOW DID A FUSIONAL POST GET QUOTED IN HERE?!?! MY BRAIN (or heart) JACKED MY KEYBOARD!

[Jynx]

I think people who are slathering for boss fights that require spreadsheets worth of information at their fingertips are forgeting that there is a giant chance that such fights wont exist strictly due to the PS3 being a big target market for SE.

Unless SE catters not only shelling out the cash but managing a DLC shop for mods....good luck with needing a giant "Please jump now" button on your screen.

[Preypacer]

This sums up your entire post as you pretty much responded to nothing I even wrote.

lol I thought the same thing.

"I require add-ons to defeat high end raid bosses. Why? 'cause I'm a pro raider".

lol.. what the hell is gaming culture coming to when needing add-ons to complete content qualifies as "pro-level". That bar just gets ever lower.

It's right up there with how people who require specific party setups, with specific character builds using specific strategies and specific add-ons in order to succeed at something, or they fall on their face, telling others to "learn how to play". The correct statement should be "Learn how to follow cookie-cutter guides to the letter, and use addons, 'cause I can't succeed otherwise. I'm too lazy and impatient to put in the effort of learning the fight through trial and error". That's all it boils down to.

The ones who actually know the game are those who understand the game mechanics well enough to make a variety of setups work, even when the "optimal everything" isn't feasible. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a group disband before it even started because the setup wasn't exactly 100% "what the guides say to do".

Of course MMO encounters had to get harder with add-ons available. They're supposed to be a challenge. The addons exist for the same reasons walkthrough guides and cookie-cutter templates do: To make "winning" in the game as easy as possible. When people are resorting to the above to defeat content, the developers kinda have to make the encounters more difficult, or it becomes a cake walk, and you end up with people complaining about "content being too easy".

How about just playing the damn game and learning encounters by paying attention and good old-fashioned trial and error?

Add-ons are a crutch. Not a necessity. The moment you concede requiring add-ons to complete content, in my opinion, you forfeit the right to associate yourself as "pro", or "expert" or "elite" anything. You definitely forfeit the right to tell anyone else to "learn to play".

[Wilksha]

I wonder if SE will even let player addons have access to monster data. I HIGHLY doubt it. I believe the only data player made addon will be able to access are direct info that you client currently holds onto. Monsters that have enimty towards you, target-able items in range (player, monsters, objects), current macros, ext. Anything bound to the "server", monster actions, monster movements, ext will be unlikely to be used for addons. Just my two cents.

[fusional]

"I require add-ons to defeat high end raid bosses. Why? 'cause I'm a pro raider"

can you quote where i've said that? oh right, no, i didn't say that. that's just your attempt at misrepresenting my position (straw man) to bolster your otherwise baseless argument.

but do you really really want to get into what we have and haven't done in this game without mods? i have a strong feeling it's going to backfire and make your argument look really, really silly. but we can do that dance if you like.

WHAT? HOW DID A FUSIONAL POST GET QUOTED IN HERE?!?! MY BRAIN (or heart) JACKED MY KEYBOARD!

ohhi. fancy meeting you here ;3

[Preypacer]

can you quote where i've said that? oh right, no, i didn't say that. that's just your attempt at misrepresenting my position (straw man) to bolster your otherwise baseless argument.

No, actually it's not a strawman. I wasn't quoting you directly. I was, however, addressing the overall tone of your post. Specifically this part:
"the best raiders are the ones who come prepared. that means having the right tools to analyze and parse the battle and your performance in it, and the right tools to improve/enhance your personal performance in it."

You're referring to "the best raiders" as being the ones who use addons... what you refer to as "tools" (euphemisms, euphemisms). In short, you're stating that the best raiders use addons. I find that to be completely laughable for all the reasons I outline in my response. If requiring addons (or guides or templates) to succeed at a fight makes one a "best raider", then the word "best" doesn't mean a whole lot.

If someone wants to say "I use addons to make winning the fight a bit easier or more manageable", then fine. That's a valid reason. But to say "I use addons because I'm one of the best raiders" is a pathetic case of self-delusion.

Speaking of strawmen, though, the latter half of that post I responded to is pretty much comprised of them. Maybe you should review your own remarks before attempting to criticize others, yes?

[Madruk]

lol I thought the same thing.

"I require add-ons to defeat high end raid bosses. Why? 'cause I'm a pro raider".

lol.. what the hell is gaming culture coming to when needing add-ons to complete content qualifies as "pro-level". That bar just gets ever lower.

It's right up there with how people who require specific party setups, with specific character builds using specific strategies and specific add-ons in order to succeed at something, or they fall on their face, telling others to "learn how to play". The correct statement should be "Learn how to follow cookie-cutter guides to the letter, and use addons, 'cause I can't succeed otherwise. I'm too lazy and impatient to put in the effort of learning the fight through trial and error". That's all it boils down to.

The ones who actually know the game are those who understand the game mechanics well enough to make a variety of setups work, even when the "optimal everything" isn't feasible. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a group disband before it even started because the setup wasn't exactly 100% "what the guides say to do".

Of course MMO encounters had to get harder with add-ons available. They're supposed to be a challenge. The addons exist for the same reasons walkthrough guides and cookie-cutter templates do: To make "winning" in the game as easy as possible. When people are resorting to the above to defeat content, the developers kinda have to make the encounters more difficult, or it becomes a cake walk, and you end up with people complaining about "content being too easy".

How about just playing the damn game and learning encounters by paying attention and good old-fashioned trial and error?

Add-ons are a crutch. Not a necessity. The moment you concede requiring add-ons to complete content, in my opinion, you forfeit the right to associate yourself as "pro", or "expert" or "elite" anything. You definitely forfeit the right to tell anyone else to "learn to play".

Once you've beaten something, that initial woopty-do rush is over and it boils down to farming. Once that happens yeah people don't want to spend the hours they initially did relearning over and over with new and half assed setups. They want to get in there, get shit done as efficiently as possible, and get out.

That applies with or without mods, I thought this was obvious to anyone that's raided for any length of time. It seems like you're talking from a perspective of pick up raids/groups or something. Even then, it applies even more because if you're in a random group you definitely want to go with the tried and true vs. something new when you're more than likely never going to see those people again.

[Antipika]

I wonder if SE will even let player addons have access to monster data. I HIGHLY doubt it. I believe the only data player made addon will be able to access are direct info that you client currently holds onto. Monsters that have enimty towards you, target-able items in range (player, monsters, objects), current macros, ext. Anything bound to the "server", monster actions, monster movements, ext will be unlikely to be used for addons. Just my two cents.

No one is talking about accessing monster's data...

Boss have predictable mechanics. Either set on a timer (i.e. : every 30 seconds, boss will use [Ability]), either randomly but with a reaction time (i.e. : [Ability] will take effect in 5 seconds, react now.)

In either cases, you don't need to access "monster data". On the first type of mechanics, players will just "learn" them eventually and set timers. Regarding the second one, it will simply be based on a chat log parse. As long as a line appears on the log saying that a boss prepares [Ability], then an add-on can warn you.

Once you've beaten something, that initial woopty-do rush is over and it boils down to farming. Once that happens yeah people don't want to spend the hours they initially did relearning over and over with new and half assed setups. They want to get in there, get shit done as efficiently as possible, and get out.

That applies with or without mods, I thought this was obvious to anyone that's raided for any length of time. It seems like you're talking from a perspective of pick up raids/groups or something.

XIV-only players never raided. So it's not obvious for people in here
----
And @Preypacer, when people uses "best raiders" it means "ahead on progression". That's the main (if not only) criteria commonly used in MMOs to determine "best" raiding teams. And ahead on progression doesn't mean killing a Primal 3 days before everyone. You're not ahead thanks to your skills in that case, just thanks to having enough free time allowing you to rush content (or use exploits before they get fixed.)

When however, after few months a content has been released, only like 5-10% of guilds cleared it while others struggle (= keeps trying but failing != casual not even trying seriously) then those 5-10% are "best" raiders

[Preypacer]

Once you've beaten something, that initial woopty-do rush is over and it boils down to farming. Once that happens yeah people don't want to spend the hours they initially did relearning over and over with new and half assed setups. They want to get in there, get shit done as efficiently as possible, and get out.

That applies with or without mods, I thought this was obvious to anyone that's raided for any length of time.

Except that those mods and addons (and so on) are mandatory by many raiding guilds for even the first attempt up to and including the win. It's not a "farm status" thing. It's a " first attempt and every one after" situation.

I've been in several such guilds and have known people in many more such guilds. I have never known of a guild who only used them for farming the raids.

I quite clearly remember being told that, without exception, everyone *had* to have a specific list of add-ons installed for the first attempt of a raid, else they didn't go. In one guild you had to post a screenshot to prove you had the "required setup". Everyone was also required to read the strategy and have it open on their computer or on a hand-held if possible.

I've been around the MMO block a few too many times to believe it's "farming only".

People rely on add-ons as a crutch because they want the win to be as easy as possible, with as little personal effort as possible. They are not ever necessary.