They should put actual MMO players on the development team.

[Rjain]

i dont know about working ON the mmo but if they offered me a GM spot, i know i wouldent copy paste responces :l

I've worked in that field and trust me, as much as I hate the copy paste thing, you don't do it you get fired. Simple as that. It is a cliche of customer service.

Don't blame the GMs, blame the bosses.

[Mijin]

Can't agree with this point. How much a person may play, or be able to play currently doesn't equate their past or education. Be it loss of past job, personal injury, handicap etc. I personally refuse to label any person as a particular group due to the time they can or can't spend on anything.

(I may sound a little mean there, not my intention, i just don't think such comments are helpful, and i certainly think they can be hurtful. In effect you are degrading others, even if that was not at all your intent)

You're right that did sound inflammatory, even though that wasn't my intention. I was thinking of a specific demographic, and that doesn't apply to everyone. I went back and deleted it.

I've worked in that field and trust me, as much as I hate the copy paste thing, you don't do it you get fired. Simple as that. It is a cliche of customer service.

Don't blame the GMs, blame the bosses.

My EX used to work for a call center and she would tell me horror stories about that kind of stuff. Like if you don't answer every call in 3 min or something and say all the right stuff they doc your pay for a month. I'm sure it's similar stuff with the GMs.

[Rjain]

My EX used to work for a call center and she would tell me horror stories about that kind of stuff. Like if you don't answer every call in 3 min or something and say all the right stuff they doc your pay for a month. I'm sure it's similar stuff with the GMs.

Pretty much spot on.

[Hyrist]

I really liked your post and I think you made a really good point about having people from all different play styles. My original thought was they could prevent really bad ideas from meeting fruition if they had hard core players as go-to people for advice, but after thinking about what you said I think your right. The advice of only hardcore players could indirectly push the game in a direction that would isolate the rest of the audience. I think I'll change my OP to reflect this.

The only thing I don't fully agree with is that they only need this sort of player correspondence at major milestones in the games content releases. I think they would benefit from this sort of interaction with the players for every version update.

There's a reason why I woulden't agree with that sectond section.

In a game designed like this one, version updating is quick, like, one minor version update each month quick. To have a crew brought in from their other lives each month would become expensive and unfeasable to continue in the long term verses keeping them in-house.

And let's get serious here. The reason why we want these players from the outside on the payroll is to provide a worldly view, rather than an in-house view. If you keep these 'advisers' in house, they're going to lose their perspective, because they'll get too close to the work. That's why playtesting is limited.

Having a public test server open will provide good feedback on minor version updates as they go through, and it costs nothing additional. For major projects, you can bring in the advisory crew to raise important issues during the early conceptional phase of major projects such as expansions, new jobs, etc. The crew then can be moved on to new projects to keep fresh in the gaming environment while the gaming company goes to develop their game based off the input.

It's not all that different from financial advising or public relations.

But instead of game companies finding and gathering these people, it would likely have to be a group of well known players working together to create some sort of 'firm' to try to ply their trade. And, honestly, the best of the gaming companies would likely never hire them until they realize that game development is much more involved then it used to be.

[Mijin]

Having a public test server open will provide good feedback on minor version updates as they go through, and it costs nothing additional.

I have no knowledge of how servers work or what they cost. I had been assuming the reason they don't do public test servers for version updates was due to cost. If that isn't the case why the hell aren't they already on board with this? I seriously hope their planning on implementing public test servers in 2.0...

For major projects, you can bring in the advisory crew to raise important issues during the early conceptional phase of major projects such as expansions, new jobs, etc. The crew then can be moved on to new projects to keep fresh in the gaming environment while the gaming company goes to develop their game based off the input.

Yet again, I can see your point. My only concern is, if left unattended they may loose sight of what players really want in the way of new content.

They seem to me to be moving in the direction of instant gratification type MMOs like WoW, in which new content is added every couple of months that makes all of the gear you obtained from old content completely useless. I may be way off target here, but I don't think that's what the vast majority of us want to see in the future of XIV. It's likely the type of people that do enjoy this type of content are already playing, and will continue to play something else.

In addition to a large portion of the current player base being dissatisfied, I really don't think turning this game into a WoW clone to lure people away from games like Rift, Tera, and WoW will be very successful. Unless they completely delete the game and start over, it's just still going too be hard, slow paced, and grindy for the instant gratification types that play those other games. Anyway you slice it the majority of our FFXIV community, the FFXI community, and the people just waiting to give this game another chance are not the same demographic as WoW. Hell, in a lot of our inner circles the term "WoW-Player" is a derogatory remark... Not trying to offend anyone who played WoW, but it's true.

A lot of people are putting their faith in SE's marketing research, but the only place that's getting them is, "Well WoW is the best selling MMO; let's make XIV more like WoW." The thing that these professionals who don't have as much if MMO play experience don't understand is that this isn't the same type of MMO as WoW, and that's why it would do them a lot of good, again in my opinion, to have a lot more input from the community, or at least some people who know what their talking about.

I think that SE would be more successful by turning this game into what we expected it to be, and by doing so bringing back all the people that shelved the game a week after it came out. The only way they're going to be able to do that in my opinion, is by figuring out the things we all want as demographic because I don't think they have a very tight grasp on it.

And, honestly, the best of the gaming companies would likely never hire them until they realize that game development is much more involved then it used to be.

I would sure hope someone learned that at SE after the launch of FFXIV, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

[LemmingKingXXX]

Can't agree with this point. How much a person may play, or be able to play currently doesn't equate their past or education. Be it loss of past job, personal injury, handicap etc. I personally refuse to label any person as a particular group due to the time they can or can't spend on anything.

(I may sound a little mean there, not my intention, i just don't think such comments are helpful, and i certainly think they can be hurtful. In effect you are degrading others, even if that was not at all your intent)

That was the nicest "being a little mean" I've ever read.

[Dargoth_Draconia]

Just not going to happen.

[Mijin]

Just not going to happen.

You're right. A Japanese company would never conduct business like that. It probably sickens them to even read the forums once and a while. I was just saying what they should do. I never expected it to realistically happen.

[Hyrist]

I have no knowledge of how servers work or what they cost. I had been assuming the reason they don't do public test servers for version updates was due to cost. If that isn't the case why the hell aren't they already on board with this? I seriously hope their planning on implementing public test servers in 2.0...

They are, that was confirmed earlier in the discussion about A Real Reborn. You can expect it after the release, however.

As far as using it for the current version? There was really no point concerning how bad the launch was. Developing a test server for a client you're about the replace really makes no sense.

Yet again, I can see your point. My only concern is, if left unattended they may loose sight of what players really want in the way of new content.

They seem to me to be moving in the direction of instant gratification type MMOs like WoW, in which new content is added every couple of months that makes all of the gear you obtained from old content completely useless. I may be way off target here, but I don't think that's what the vast majority of us want to see in the future of XIV. It's likely the type of people that do enjoy this type of content are already playing, and will continue to play something else.

You're referring to Power Creep. Sadly this is inevitable in MMOs. To get a player interested in new loot, the loot must be enticing in some manner. The default idea concerning this is to make the loot better than the last. Given the fact that we still have half our levels to go, this is going to happen for a while.

However, given my experience in gaming in general, I'm now of the opinion that Loot is inconsequential. Several Million people play League of Legends, yet there's little 'loot' really involved besides unlocking new characters. Granted that it is not an MMO, but there is a lessen still to be learned there.

If the content of the game is enjoyable enough, then the loot itself isn't as relevant. Granted, there needs to be a sense of progression and reward, but some of these can be given out by consumables like Materia.

This is a lesson MMOs in general have not yet learned, be it player side or developer side. What makes a massive multiplayer game is a consistant world. All else is on the table to be questioned and re-designed.

In addition to a large portion of the current player base being dissatisfied, I really don't think turning this game into a WoW clone to lure people away from games like Rift, Tera, and WoW will be very successful. Unless they completely delete the game and start over, it's just still going too be hard, slow paced, and grindy for the instant gratification types that play those other games. Anyway you slice it the majority of our FFXIV community, the FFXI community, and the people just waiting to give this game another chance are not the same demographic as WoW. Hell, in a lot of our inner circles the term "WoW-Player" is a derogatory remark... Not trying to offend anyone who played WoW, but it's true.

A couple notions are bad to hold here. First, our 'inner circles' are not our core target audience, so basing standards off of their derogatory viewpoints isn't healthy for the game. We could, unfortunate it is to admit, stand to lose a few of those players in attempts to make a larger core base. This is the sad fact that those who look down on WoW fail to realize, but in the face of a larger stable audience, they are expendable.

That said, taking inspiration from WoW and other established MMO mechanics is not bad - so long as they are not taken entirely verbatim.

A lot of people are putting their faith in SE's marketing research, but the only place that's getting them is, "Well WoW is the best selling MMO; let's make XIV more like WoW." The thing that these professionals who don't have as much if MMO play experience don't understand is that this isn't the same type of MMO as WoW, and that's why it would do them a lot of good, again in my opinion, to have a lot more input from the community, or at least some people who know what their talking about.

I think that SE would be more successful by turning this game into what we expected it to be, and by doing so bringing back all the people that shelved the game a week after it came out. The only way they're going to be able to do that in my opinion, is by figuring out the things we all want as demographic because I don't think they have a very tight grasp on it.

I have to say, your expectations of the game seem to be controlled by a rather irrational fear. There are a great deal of consistent Final fantasy mechanics still left within the game, that could exist within the bounds of certain proven WoW mechanics, and not only keep the majority of the existing base, but garner even more people.

The problem is, people are panicked anytime they here something that faintly resembles WoW. Therefore mentioning going over to Blizzard to discuss the current trends in MMORPGs gives people a heart attack. Most of the negative reaction to these changes is knee-jerk and contain little actual substance to them.

The game as it stands now is far, far cry from World of Warcraft, and the addition of Questing for leveling is not going to suddenly turn this into WoW. There is so much more to Final Fantasy than how you level, and people have lost grip of that. More so than any other game out on the market - Final Fantasy has been about telling a gripping story, and creating a game surrounded around that fact through questing is far more close to the Final Fantasy then it ever could be World of Warcraft.

- And that point is Yoshida's greatest challenge here: To keep story on the forefront. The quests should be nearly as compelling as the main storyline. If they can accomplish that, then players will forgive the quest based leveling.

I would sure hope someone learned that at SE after the launch of FFXIV, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

There was a much more important lesson SE had to learn first, that I believe they have. That was learning to communicate with and listen to their players. Yoshida put a good first step forward when he started the letters from the producer and he has not disappointing since.

Players have come up with concerns, and he's gone to address them - repeatedly. Dragoon Balancing. Paladin Balancing, loot issues. He's even done away with Speedruns for A Realm Reborn.

He's listening. And if the stories and entertainment brought to us by the 7th Umbral Era and sidequests like the Inn Quests are any indication, then the future is bright for our game.

In an effort to ease the fears of players I'd like to remind people of Yoshida's own spoken priorities as far as this game.

This is an MMORPG, and as such it will borrow from some common mechanics from MMOs, including World of Warcraft. But this is third priority, and where the similarities with WoW ends.

The second is the first major deviation for WoW. And that is Role-playing games. Warcraft started as an RTS, not an RPG. The concepts and developments from its roots do not even share the same genre. And the concepts of what make that genre great are prioritized above inspirations taken from World of Warcraft.

But above even that - Yoshida's top priority - is that it is a Final Fantasy game. In spite of it's recent issues, Final Fantasy still holds the longest ongoing selection of classic RPGs of any franchise - period. And they're looking to adhere to that tradition first and foremost.

That means when they say quests are the primary means of getting XP. They mean FINAL FANTASY quests - not WoW's text-boxes of doom. They'll be quickly corrected if it is otherwise. Given Yoshida's tendency to listen and their habits of quick updates, I'd recommend skepticism rather than fear.

Making the game as they described work to the Final Fantasy standard is a tall order, but I'll wait to see before screaming one way or another.

[Mijin]

Reading Hyrist posts always make me feel calmer, like the light at the end of the tunnel isn't a train for once. lol