Nael Van Darnus vs Shadow Lord

[Rhomagus]

I didn't like the shadowlord in FFXI, his motives were quite shallow as was his reasoning for doing the things he did, he was the typical "Heartbroken revenge" villain archetype. He didn't have much of a personality either. We all know of the Raogrimm sob story that turned him into the shadowlord and he was consumed by his hatred. He was just too cliche to me, and as far as villans go, all he did was sit on a throne, no actual means on motives, as he was more of a:
"I'll just sit here and do nothing" kind of character

Now Nael Van Darnus (What a man! lolz) even though he's rather cliche as well with the whole (Imma destroy za warudo!) He rules with an iron fist, he believes what he does is for the "GREATER GOOD" even if it is otherwise, the fact that he considers us guilty by association is what makes me think "WTF is up with this guy??" I loved the fact that he was able to fulfill his motives using others, and even in death, his motives were complete.
He also has manners... and he's an elezen so that's extra points with me.
(If only I could see what was under that helm)


SWAGGER!

I don't think Raogrimm did it just because he was heartbroken. That was just the tipping point. We witnessed his disgust with the Humes unwillingness to even try to understand those around them. He witnessed, first hand, the oppressive hands of racism. This is without mentioning the 200 years of oppressed memories he carried with him. The scars run significantly deeper than mere heartbreak.

Regarding his personality, I'd say his lack of personality is what was most striking. He became emotionally dead. Surprisingly calm despite the circumstances. Oddly focused. Possibly a metaphor for how a small moment in our lives could change the course of our psychological history if we just happen to not have our moral / emotional defenses bolstered. With a savage, ravenous, brute of a killer you might be able to take advantage of a lapse in his judgement. No such flaw was overtly present in Raogrimm / Shadow Lord. His hatred was calculated.

His motives were driven by a reasonable disgust and hatred for the sins of the "enlightened" peoples of Vana'diel. With his entire race being treated as just one step above the Beastmen horde. One thing I never really bought though was why he didn't make his first order of business the complete eradication of the Anticans. If racial motivations were any part of his psychological profile I'd think that would be the very first thing to occur. If not, they should've explained why.

While I'm for the Shadow Lord as the "better" villain. I don't think I can say that Van Darnus is not a good villain. He's well written (considering the dev's limitations) and certainly aesthetically well designed. I think he wins in that category. He's a villain I would love to see more fleshed out. I don't think we had enough time with him. Hopefully we'll get to see more of him.

You could blend out a lot of the details of the shadow lord because he's so dark but Van Darnus' armor is so ornate and intricate. A very interesting character indeed. As per motivations though I still feel Raogrimm trumps Darnus in that respect.

Gaius Van Baelsar on the other hand... He has the aesthetic appeal of Darnus but a cold and haunting rationality. He'll get your own nation to implode internally via subversion. He can explain why you are inferior without having to kill you. He'll use you to kill yourself, submit to him, or die in a futile struggle against him. He holds all the cards and he doesn't care about inheritance.

The only thorn in his side is his own unpredictable, overzealous, sprat of a peer Van Darnus (who was probably handed his position by bloodright). If Van Darnus isn't dead, I foresee Gaius fulfilling Heirsbane's namesake yet again.

If the empire were ruled by Van Baelsar, we'd be rolling out the red carpets for the Empire rather than causing needless casualties. In fact, Darnus' pet Meteor project may be all in vain. Without Meteor there'd be no reason for the Circle of Knowing to do what they're going to do. Our only chance against the empire would be small pockets of Ala Mighan refugees and other rebels against a military force the likes of which have never been seen. While meteor was supposed to be a deathblow, perhaps the slow poison and dread caused by an eventual occupation would have broken the spirits of the Eorzeans more thoroughly, and the people of Eorzea would've been much easier controlled rather than being galvanized to fight for their freedom as a unified force.

[Mudd]

Well, which iconic FF entity uses Megaflare?

This is assuming SE didn't fuck up the translation of course.

It isn't the weapons.

Good point..

[Rhomagus]

i hope this properly highlights why this thread is completely ridiculous.

it's hard to make a lasting impact when THERE HASN'T BEEN ANY MORE STORY YET. ffxi tied the shadow lord back into story and lore long after his death, made a return as dynamis lord, blah blah blah. we have no idea what role van darnus will play in future story/lore, and the fight isn't even going to be available forever.

brb facepalming so hard it crushes my face into the back of my skull

I'm actually not taking any post Vanilla XI into account when considering the Shadow Lord as a character vs. Van Darnus. Plot wise I'll admit I like the tying of his motivations to RotZ, but I'd even go as far as to say I'm more comparing Raogrimm to Van Darnus rather than the Shadow Lord.

I agree with your point though. I don't think we've gotten enough Van Darnus to feasibly "call it" and I'm hoping we get to see more of him. I think it would be better if we compared pre Zilart Shadow Lord to Van Darnus, but even then, I don't think we'll even be able to fight Darnus in his present iteration in ARR. Who knows how much of this Darnus will spill over to ARR. His character could completely change.

[fusional]

I'm actually not taking any post Vanilla XI into account when considering the Shadow Lord as a character vs. Van Darnus. Plot wise I'll admit I like the tying of his motivations to RotZ, but I'd even go as far as to say I'm more comparing Raogrimm to Van Darnus rather than the Shadow Lord.

I agree with your point though. I don't think we've gotten enough Van Darnus to feasibly "call it" and I'm hoping we get to see more of him. I think it would be better if we compared pre Zilart Shadow Lord to Van Darnus, but even then, I don't think we'll even be able to fight Darnus in his present iteration in ARR. Who knows how much of this Darnus will spill over to ARR. His character could completely change.

fair enough. good points. i just think it's silly when people base their arguments on outright bias, or a flawed premise right from the start. i understand it's human nature to feel the need to compare and contrast, but at least put them on some sort of equal footing- else the comparison is useless.

i have a lot of nostalgia for the shadow lord fight, and most of the FFXI storyline in general. it just seems ridiculous to me that after a week or so people are able to jump to such wild conclusions. it's like predicting who's gonna be the league MVP after week 3.

[AsterBarnivere]

Where do they say that Nael is an Elezen? I can't remember that. x_x

He's in the elezen DAT files... Gaius is in the Hyur dat files somewhere too.

[Kagato]

i hope this properly highlights why this thread is completely ridiculous.

it's hard to make a lasting impact when THERE HASN'T BEEN ANY MORE STORY YET. ffxi tied the shadow lord back into story and lore long after his death, made a return as dynamis lord, blah blah blah. we have no idea what role van darnus will play in future story/lore, and the fight isn't even going to be available forever.

brb facepalming so hard it crushes my face into the back of my skull

Behold, ladies and gentleman! A fool is among us!

It may sound like a hard thing to grasp, but it is possible to be impacted by something you only just experienced. I mean... what do you do? Ride a roller coaster and then wait until the following week to burst out with "HOLY CRAP THAT WAS AWESOME" or something?

[nekroturkey]

fair enough. good points. i just think it's silly when people base their arguments on outright bias, or a flawed premise right from the start. i understand it's human nature to feel the need to compare and contrast, but at least put them on some sort of equal footing- else the comparison is useless.

i have a lot of nostalgia for the shadow lord fight, and most of the FFXI storyline in general. it just seems ridiculous to me that after a week or so people are able to jump to such wild conclusions. it's like predicting who's gonna be the league MVP after week 3.

It's not some sort of important/life or death situation, where you need to make the utmost objective choice. Nothing is hanging in the balance. It's not like if you pick one of the two as your favorite right now, the other one will completely vanish from the face of existence.

Does it matter if a person's decision is biased/subjective, or based off of fallacious reasoning in regards to this specific topic? We're deciding which of the two are our favorite main villains (which is ultimately subjective), not which one was the most significant main villain of their respective stories or the most powerful main villain. In addition, are your decisions permanent? If you were to decide between the two characters right now, would you be incapable of changing your mind at a later point?

I feel like the people on these forums are too obsessed with turning every topic into a debate about who's reasoning is the most logical. Everything has to be objective, everything has to be logical, can't be subjective. Straw man fallacy this, red herring that. Have to be a robot and make calculated decisions about everything. Can't just make topics purely for entertainment purposes.

Ultimately it's up to you if you want to make a decision or not, but would it really kill you to choose between the two, despite the fact that Darnus has only been the final boss for about three weeks? Honestly, your "THIS THREAD IS RIDICUROUS!!" attitude is about as ridiculous as you claim this thread is. If you think this thread is ridiculous, then why post in it? Let everyone else have their fun, while you play the part of the cynic by your lonesome.

[fusional]

Behold, ladies and gentleman! A fool is among us!

It may sound like a hard thing to grasp, but it is possible to be impacted by something you only just experienced. I mean... what do you do? Ride a roller coaster and then wait until the following week to burst out with "HOLY CRAP THAT WAS AWESOME" or something?

again your point is irrational. i never said you can't be impacted by something you just experienced, i said it was silly to weigh the LASTING IMPACT of that thing a week later when compared against something you had the opportunity to marinate over for YEARS. understand?

and on one hand you imply something existing for the better part of a decade has more lasting impact than something only out for a week. on the other you make it sound like feeling something has lasting impact a week later is TOO LONG, and strange, and should never happen. but 7-10 years isn't?

make up your mind.

Can't just make topics purely for entertainment purposes.

so you're the expert on what is and isn't entertaining, right? the entertainment police? i shouldn't swoop into a thread and say logical things because that's not entertaining... to you? what's entertaining to you should be entertaining to me and everyone else? so what's entertaining to me isn't entertaining to you or anyone else, nor should it be?

my point of view, while never professing to come from the position of a majority, is wrong- your point of view, implying majority rule, is right?

i see, i see. my apologies, great forum emperor.

[AsterBarnivere]

It's not some sort of important/life or death situation, where you need to make the utmost objective choice. Nothing is hanging in the balance. It's not like if you pick one of the two as your favorite right now, the other one will completely vanish from the face of existence.

Does it matter if a person's decision is biased/subjective, or based off of fallacious reasoning in regards to this specific topic? We're deciding which of the two are our favorite main villains (which is ultimately subjective), not which one was the most significant main villain of their respective stories or the most powerful main villain. In addition, are your decisions permanent? If you were to decide between the two characters right now, would you be incapable of changing your mind at a later point?

I feel like the people on these forums are too obsessed with turning every topic into a debate about who's reasoning is the most logical. Everything has to be objective, everything has to be logical, can't be subjective. Straw man fallacy this, red herring that. Have to be a robot and make calculated decisions about everything. Can't just make topics purely for entertainment purposes.

Ultimately it's up to you if you want to make a decision or not, but would it really kill you to choose between the two, despite the fact that Darnus has only been the final boss for about three weeks? Honestly, your "THIS THREAD IS RIDICUROUS!!" attitude is about as ridiculous as you claim this thread is. If you think this thread is ridiculous, then why post in it? Let everyone else have their fun, while you play the part of the cynic by your lonesome.

Calm down good sir...

again your point is irrational. i never said you can't be impacted by something you just experienced, i said it was silly to weigh the LASTING IMPACT of that thing a week later when compared against something you had the opportunity to marinate over for YEARS. understand?

and on one hand you imply something existing for the better part of a decade has more lasting impact than something only out for a week. on the other you make it sound like feeling something has lasting impact a week later is TOO LONG, and strange, and should never happen. but 7-10 years isn't?

make up your mind.

I played Journey on the PS3 a week ago, it blew me away with it's symbolism, art direction and music and what little of it there was and only 1:30 long, it was the most beautiful and immersive game I've ever played. There were no words, no dialogue, nothing but beautiful visuals and music.

I also played FFXIII the week after, the graphics were beautiful, the game was long and the story was complex, it had action and violence, something Journey didn't need to have a lasting impact. and yet I find myself going back to journey again and again...

Are you saying that just because something is short and only has been released for a week that it doesn't have a lasting effect? Your logic is flawed.

[fusional]

Are you saying that just because something is short and only has been released for a week that it doesn't have a lasting effect? Your logic is flawed.

where have i ever said anything remotely similar? you're drawing your own conclusions. what i say is precisely what i mean. i use very specific denotative language. if you attempt to draw inference from my words outside of the actual words and their meanings, that's on your head, not mine.

all i've done is say that it's not a balanced comparison to weigh "lasting impact" of something one week old versus something nearly a decade old considering the latter had many more instances of involvement through later parts of its respective story- something the former hasn't had the opportunity to match.

how is this so difficult a concept to grasp? i don't understand how most of you think. at all.

but ommggg you said this thing and rather than take it for what it actually says i will attempt to interject my own meaning because that is far more convenient and better suits any point i have tried or will try to make rarrrrr

posting in these forums is a lesson in futility. you all just read what you want to read as a convenient device to carry on with whatever it was you were going to say anyway.