Will DRG and PLD still be next to useless in 2.0?

[Skies]

Just because someone said that you cannot Block a Weaponskill:
http://youtu.be/0rjjnB9liC4

Me doing it!

[Orophin]

I saw you added an edit to your original post but I decided I'd chime in anyway, in regards to Paladin anyway.

I took a bit of a break between Garuda and the current patch (I wasn't really interested in all the hoops you have jump through to get a relic so I haven't worked on it) and they play a LOT better after the last patch where they were tweaked around with. They seem a lot less squishier than a WAR tank IMO with how much more often you can block, especially with the revised abilities oriented towards block. Their hate generation is a lot better with fast>flat spam and Spirits Within hits really hard when it's up. Paladin feels like the superior tank in a single mob encounter.

I'll agree that WAR will make some fights more convenient, such as Garuda with helping to kill plumes, but most fights should be doable with a Paladin now. Being able to do so really makes the game more enjoyable for me, especially since Paladin was my main in FF11.

As for Dragoons, I'd agree they're probably underutilized. Our LS leader has been using his DRG to do skirmish and I think others have been kind of playing whatever they want for that since it's not very hard content.

[Zdenka]

I was at work but I was reading this thread.

DRG has the highest sustained damage potential of all classes right now. It is, however, the most difficult class to play due to having the most TP and attempting to always have WS's off CD ready to go which can be the difference between 90DPS and 160DPS.

Also that video of BLM's killing Princess in ~2 minutes, our LS kills it with 1 BLM, 4 DRG, 1 WHM, 2 WAR in about 1.5m not needing 15m abilities either and there's another LS out there using a similar set up that can kill it even quicker than that with pretty much all DRG. Our Marshal is about 15% when Princess dies just due to DRG's AoE potential that surpasses BLM's on 2 mobs.

MNK can outparse DRG only on mobs they can Vuln, such as MM. If you removed FoF on MM a 170DPS MNK would drop to about 125DPS while DRG's can still get 150+. MM is also a terrible mob because it requires little to virtually no extra accuracy gear to hit it nearly 100%. As soon as you use MNK's geared solely for MM to different boss mobs, their DPS drops substantially due to missing WS's, or regearing for Acc+.


Before the changes to crit/power surge I'd be inclined to agree that DRG was the weakest class besides PLD, but after that update I feel its the strongest class damage wise in the game for sustained dps. BLM is very very good at burst DPS because its damage is all frontloaded, and thats why its great for AoE speed runs, but for killing off 2 mobs at a time even DRG just destroys. MNK is also very good for bursting DPS, especially on mobs it can vuln, but in any fight longer than 5 minutes it requires ballad or its DPS drops, while after 2 minutes DRG's damage increases.


Game will rebalance every patch, but as OP said he didn't play either class, and really didn't have any constructive evidence besides X MNK always is better than X DRG but I am glad he has re-evaluated some from the testimonies of players that have both and play both frequently enough to know the strengths and weaknesses of each.

[Dawiichan]

You know, just stating this. If the monk has to lose FoF against miser, the DRG has to lose power surge. Would cancel out the loss. Not fair to gimp monk and compare it to DRG DPS. In reality, the monk would probably do more in the end again. If anything compare it against Coin Counter. Monk doesn't get an increased ele bonus (other than the base one) so it would even out.

[Amsai]

No that proves something is wrong with this community. Ever Job shines one way or another. Its not that MNK and DRG are gimp, Far from it actually. The problem is most of the community does not have the skill level to play mnk/drg effectively.

Really? Interesting..... While Technically you are right, arent we missing the bigger point?

The problem is most of the community does not have the skill level to play mnk/drg effectively. Lets examine this statement. You are probably right in your evaluation of the community and its melee skill. But doesnt this say more about the inherent problems with the game design than it does the community. Im not saying it shouldnt take some skill to play a class, but I dont really agree that it should take more skill to play one class over the other to such a large degree. Ultimately classes should be about the role you want to play and the flavor of that role. Sorry, but if enough people are complaining about an issue or are having problems, then its no longer just them being wrong.

To me this is like telling someone they have the choice to sit in 1 of 2 different chairs. The chairs seem similar and perform the same function. However, one has a tac built into the seat. You try out the first chair and its comfortable. You try the second chair and you immidiately are in pain and uncomfortable. You want to complain to the management, but then a small yet very vocal segment of the customers say that its fine as is and that you simply must develop the ability to bare it.

Now maybe 2.0 will change things due to the new engine and other things like no animation lock, but as it stands right now all I see when I fight in primal battles are miserable and dejected melee. And frankly I think its ridiculous for it to be this way. Some people were saying that if melee would just be played more often, and if people practiced then people wouldnt have a problem with melee in boss battles. I am horrified when I have to think of all the melee I have fought with against Coincounter. Soooo many melee deaths, all the while the ranged portion of the party just chillin. I have done the Coincounter fight easily a couple hundred times, and only had one melee (who was to be sure a badass DRG) survive the fight. This isnt a "it cant be done" argument, this is a "it shouldnt be so unreasonable" argument. Christ I know a dude that roles melee and like I mean ALWAYS dies durring Ifrit (for months). What do we tell this dude? Sorry you arent skilled enough to play a melee, go f*@& yourself? Hell naw! Just dont make such a large difference in needed skill between melee and ranged.

Maybe 2.0 will fix some issues between ranged and melee survivability, maybe not. Here are some possible solutions for 1.0 (or 2.0 if nothing changes):

1. Dont have a f@*&ing midboss that can spam one shots on melee (lol though it is funny to watch)

2. Toughen melee up a bit so they arent such wussies and can take a hit or 2 from the AoE madness (HPs/damage cut/whatever)

3. This isnt supposed to be true action combat (TERA), so wtf does our semi-ATB/turnbased-ish feeling battle flow include split second timing move or die boss mechanics (confused?)

4. Or hell just make it more resonable like with Van Darnus. Once the melee know what to look for I have not seen any of them fail to "get out of the fire".

[TimonLoon]

Just because someone said that you cannot Block a Weaponskill:
http://youtu.be/0rjjnB9liC4

Me doing it!

Er that video isn't loading...

[Chardrizard]

You know, just stating this. If the monk has to lose FoF against miser, the DRG has to lose power surge. Would cancel out the loss. Not fair to gimp monk and compare it to DRG DPS. In reality, the monk would probably do more in the end again. If anything compare it against Coin Counter. Monk doesn't get an increased ele bonus (other than the base one) so it would even out.

People are just saying they shines in different places, Monk shines in NM with elemental weakness, DRG shines in the one without.

[Dawiichan]

People are just saying they shines in different places, Monk shines in NM with elemental weakness, DRG shines in the one without.

That's what I'm stating though. No matter what NM you find, a MNK can find an elemental advantage since they have both umbral and astral fists. So that will never happen. TBH, from every fight I've done so far MNK can out damage DRG any time when it comes to 1v1. Though when you add multiple targets to the equation, DRG just destroys MNK in dmg. I'm not just talking about miser here either.

I've always found having both jobs to be the best solution, since together they complement each other really well.

[Duelle]

PLD, on the other hand, must gear STR/MND for damage. but must also look at trying to fit VIT/HP/Defense and in some cases DEX for shield blocks. enmity is not needed as much due to the modifiers from MND on abilities. but PLD sorely lacks acc and must try to balance far more stats to stay viable. all of the really good PLD I've seen have capped stats and very effecient use of abilities and go for damage over defense.

I personally think PLDs primary stats should be VIT and PIE, not STR/MND. WAR i believe is fine as STR/VIT but PLD takes a serious hit when it gets no damage from a defensive stat like WAR does. if SE wants PLD to be the defacto tank than either the formulas need to change or PLD needs a major boost to its abilities. I personally think it's easier to switch it to VIT/PIE. However this may become extremely problematic in PvP, as this would make PLD monstrous. PLD could switch to STR/PIE and make it more of a magical tank and WAR a more physical tank. but then DRG would need to switch to STR/??? so there is no overlap.

If we established that damage = enmity (because tank DPS does matter), why would we want to shift focus away from damage and gimp PLD damage even more? I can offer a better solution:

Change STR so that aside from boosting sword attack also boosts Shield Block chance. Change MND so that it slightly increases damage mitigation (maybe about 50% of what VIT would do for damage mitigation). PLD gearing can then shift to working with STR and MND, and sword's low base damage would keep things in check. WAR would still have the edge in terms of raw HP, but PLD would have mitigation built into their primary stats just like WAR does.

[Alerith]

STR aside from boosting sword attack also boosts Shield Block chance.

This is incorrect, as it is stated that DEX gives an increase to Shield Block chance, and even then, the increase is so insignificant, it's not worth wasting the slot increasing DEX when you can fill it with something better.