@Devs: PLD/GLD and poor AoE enmity management. Intentional design choice?

[Arkine]

What I'd like to see:

TP Free shield bash and Wardrum.
Make Cover useful without AF body.
Any kind of MP refresh. (Maybe MP drain added to Phalanx?)
Fixed enmity on AoE moves.


2.0 Yes?

[Duelle]

If we are meant to be the premier, specialized "Tank" of FFXIV, why is that we are so woefully inadequate in multi-mob situations? I can understand that you want WAR to have it's niche in AoE damage/AoE crowd control, but in effect this just makes Paladin a liability in Stronghold type situations. Since WAR can be an effective tank for BOTH AoE and Single Target, shouldn't Paladin as well?

I don't think we're going to or should be THE tank of FFXIV, but more of a member of a cadre of classes/jobs that can take the role of tank.

» Give us Circle Slash back with a decent threat modifier and/or an Enmity/Accuracy combo bonus. We badly need an AoE weaponskill, and since this was already programmed/animated it would be a simple fix.

Agreed. I'd make it the "heavy damage with notable cooldown" attack.

» Buff War Drum (Lower CD or increased Effect). As it stands, it simply offers too little enmity on too long of a CD. A single War Drum will almost never pull hate back off a WHM who was simply doing his job healing you, nevermind a DD who pressed an aoe button (or, god forbid, a BLM).

Agreed. I'd shorten the cooldown, keep the damage as is but give it an enmity multiplier (or buff it if there is one there already). War Drum should be the go to ability to get AoE aggro with Circle Blade being for damage as well as for oh-shit moments where you need group snap aggro.

» Add a passive trait that has a chance to reduce the cooldown on [War Drum] or [Flash] whenever we successful block an attack. This would create some interesting options for the player: we could pop Divine Veil/Outmaneuver either for mitigation or to spam War Drums.

100% agree. This is where the tanking game would become a little more reactive and strategy-oriented.

» Add a passive trait which reflects or inflicts some amount of holy damage whenever we block. This turns Divine Veil/Outmaneuver into potential AoE threat tools, and fits with the overall theme of Paladins.

I'm iffy on this, if only because Final Fantasy Paladins aren't really the type that can imbue their weapons and armor with holy energy. D&D and Warcraft paladins, sure. Blame it on Cecil for being a guy with a sword, Cover and some white magic. =P

» Make Phalanx AoE. Simple and effective. It could be argued that Phalanx is our version of Overpower, yet Phalanx does not have any special properties whatsoever. At the very least, shouldn't this be a high threat move?

I'd buff the damage of Phalanx and keep it single-target, assuming one of the other changes you suggested is made.

[Quatre]

I pretty much agree entirely with your post

[ShivenCasull]

I don't think we're going to or should be THE tank of FFXIV, but more of a member of a cadre of classes/jobs that can take the role of tank.

Agreed. I'd make it the "heavy damage with notable cooldown" attack.

Agreed. I'd shorten the cooldown, keep the damage as is but give it an enmity multiplier (or buff it if there is one there already). War Drum should be the go to ability to get AoE aggro with Circle Blade being for damage as well as for oh-shit moments where you need group snap aggro.

War Drum would be at a good place with a 30 second CD instead of the current 60 seconds. Also, it would be great if it didn't require a block to activate. Having a setup time (block requirement), 60 second cool down, low damage even with the enimity modifier leaves it a lack luster skill.

I disagree with circle slash though. PLD's give up damage for healing and defense. With an improved WD a paladin could still function as an AOE tank without stepping in the burst AOE warriors provide.

[Duelle]

I disagree with circle slash though. PLD's give up damage for healing and defense. With an improved WD a paladin could still function as an AOE tank without stepping in the burst AOE warriors provide.

Which would then act against paladins if design decides to take tank DPS into account. Just trying to think of the future.

The whole "gives up offense for heals" is arbitrary and poor reasoning, because at the end of the day the tank roster has to be fairly equal if you want everyone to have a fair shot at their respective roles.

[Kerzael]

Hello, I mainly lurk on these forums, but am very interested in the future of tank roles, especially post 2.0. I would like to offer my opinion, misguided as it may be, as I have no experience with Paladin and limited experience with Warrior.

Would it not be more desirable to adjust Paladin tanking via curing so as to increase effectiveness as healer, as well as boosting survivability, but denying snap AOE aggro that is the Warriors strong point? If Warrior were made slightly squishier, possibly unable to survive certain single target encounters, the group dynamic may be served better by requiring both tank types and only 1x the single healing focused job of White Mage.

If WS damage and AOE aggro abilities for Paladin were boosted we may end up with 2 equally powerful tanks and only one group position for them, while still requiring 2 group positions for the single healing focused job of White Mage. I feel that would be a step in the wrong direction.

[SwordCoheir]

Would it not be more desirable to adjust Paladin tanking via curing so as to increase effectiveness as healer, as well as boosting survivability, but denying snap AOE aggro that is the Warriors strong point? If Warrior were made slightly squishier, possibly unable to survive certain single target encounters, the group dynamic may be served better by requiring both tank types and only 1x the single healing focused job of White Mage.

Problem with Cures is Enmity is divided amongst targets like Rampart, and as is you only get .6 enmity of the amount cured which is impractical for multiple targets. They did this to prevent WHM's from drawing super hate every time they cast Cura/ga. It work's inversely for PLD of course, but at the same token PLD is always in active mode and has a much more limited mp supply to warrant reckless Cure spam. So it works out as intended in the end I suppose.

If WS damage and AOE aggro abilities for Paladin were boosted we may end up with 2 equally powerful tanks and only one group position for them, while still requiring 2 group positions for the single healing focused job of White Mage. I feel that would be a step in the wrong direction.

Problem with our current abilities are

Rampart- Hate is divided amongst targets, minute long cooldown, only really effective when multiple party members are in range.
War Drum- Requires Block, costs twice as much TP as Overpower, Damage is deplorable (always under 50), one minute cooldown, and enmity generated is lower than using Rampart on just yourself.
WS- We have no AoE WS, in fact were the only job that doesn't have a damaging AoE at all. (lolWar Drum doesn't count.)
Flash- The only AoE gem we have to generate real hate with, reasonable 30 second timer, casts Blind, but considering every job has at least 2 damaging AoE moves it's really not enough.

It's not like were asking for a WS that compares to Steel Cyclone in damage, but our options really do need to be expanded on even if it turns out to give bad damage like Flat Blade but gives us a good hate combo modifier.

[Ronik]

Hello, I mainly lurk on these forums, but am very interested in the future of tank roles, especially post 2.0. I would like to offer my opinion, misguided as it may be, as I have no experience with Paladin and limited experience with Warrior.

Would it not be more desirable to adjust Paladin tanking via curing so as to increase effectiveness as healer, as well as boosting survivability, but denying snap AOE aggro that is the Warriors strong point? If Warrior were made slightly squishier, possibly unable to survive certain single target encounters, the group dynamic may be served better by requiring both tank types and only 1x the single healing focused job of White Mage.

If WS damage and AOE aggro abilities for Paladin were boosted we may end up with 2 equally powerful tanks and only one group position for them, while still requiring 2 group positions for the single healing focused job of White Mage. I feel that would be a step in the wrong direction.

Glad you started posting! I've posted my thoughts on healing as a primary enmity tool earlier in this thread, but I'll sum up the major points I made:

I don't like curing as a primary enmity tool. It simply isn't reliable and consistent. My first issue with cures is that overhealing generates zero threat. This means that in order for cure bombing to generate any threat, either you or someone else needs to have taken damage. If you are bombing yourself with cures, you're wasting a third of Holy Succor's enmity potential. If you're cure bombing someone else, you're overlapping with the WHM's job (and most times, he will be quicker to heal than you are since you have other buttons to press). Additionally, if that person is taking damage because he has hate, you have already failed to do your job adequately. A primary enmity tool should be universally reliable - not effective only in niche cases (AoE splash damage) or dependent on someone else taking damage (failure to hold enmity).

Granted, there are situations where the PLD's healing is extremely effective and supportive (Primal Battles come to mind), but there are plenty of situations where you don't have that kind of AoE splash damage going on. I believe curing is a fantastic secondary Enmity tool; another weapon in our arsenal to maintain hate and support our party. However, we still require stronger primary tools which are reliably usable every pull.

Now, for the second half of your post: a Warrior's strengths extend far beyond AoE enmity generation. If all Warriors had was AoE enmity without damage, Paladins and Warriors would be more closely balanced against eachother. The issue here is that Warrior's are the strongest AoE damage dealers in the game, on top of having the highest AoE threat generation. They can effectively Single target DD, single target Tank, AoE DD, and AoE tank. Warriors can perform four roles effectively (and, pretty much, simultaneously). A Paladin can only single target Tank and single target DD. The lack of any AoE damage whatsoever is particularly painful: nearly every boss fight/endgame event in the game has some kind of AoE component atm, and a Paladin simply outputs nothing against more than one target.

We cannot damage Garuda's sisters while tanking her, we cannot hit multiple Moogles, we are virtually worthless in Strongholds, we cannot provide any AoE damage in hamlet, and we cannot help with Ifrit's nails (not saying we *should*, but Warriors at least have the option to do so). This is a major, major weakness, which will only grow as more content is added to the game.

This is, of course, a generalization of the balance issues between Warriors and Paladins. More specifically this thread is addressing specific abilities which are broken (War Drum) as well as an obvious lack of essential tanking tools relative to the Warrior.

[Curcio]

I agree with Ronik. Warriors can fill so many more roles than a Paladin, AND they can fill all of the roles a Paladin can. I'll even disagree with Ronik on the Paladin being able to single target DPS.

A lot of our DPS focused skills require us to use them from behind the enemy. Something that we really can't do effectively if we're tanking. And if we're not tanking and filling in the role of DPS, we are outdone by Dragoons, Warriors, and Monks.

Paladins are GREAT tanks. But Warriors can single target tank the content we can, along with:

- AoE tanking.
- AoE damage.
- Single Target damage. Higher than ours.

And from what I've seen all of the content so far requires AoE damage/hate.

[Duelle]

I don't like curing as a primary enmity tool. It simply isn't reliable and consistent. My first issue with cures is that overhealing generates zero threat. This means that in order for cure bombing to generate any threat, either you or someone else needs to have taken damage. If you are bombing yourself with cures, you're wasting a third of Holy Succor's enmity potential. If you're cure bombing someone else, you're overlapping with the WHM's job (and most times, he will be quicker to heal than you are since you have other buttons to press). Additionally, if that person is taking damage because he has hate, you have already failed to do your job adequately. A primary enmity tool should be universally reliable - not effective only in niche cases (AoE splash damage) or dependent on someone else taking damage (failure to hold enmity).

Agreed. I know this design choice was made to be similar to how people played PLD in FFXI, as combat was slow enough that you could afford to cure yourself and others mid-combat, but in my own experience it doesn't fly much here and feels very awkward. As I mentioned in another thread, the tank shouldn't be offhealing anyways because their focus should be on not dying and avoiding mechanics and hazards.

Granted, there are situations where the PLD's healing is extremely effective and supportive (Primal Battles come to mind), but there are plenty of situations where you don't have that kind of AoE splash damage going on. I believe curing is a fantastic secondary Enmity tool; another weapon in our arsenal to maintain hate and support our party. However, we still require stronger primary tools which are reliably usable every pull.

Personally, I would tier things as Damage > Abilities > Curing, making heals a tertiary way of generating enmity, where damage and abilities would supercede it from a design perspective. My previous suggestions included making Holy Succor a smart heal and instant cast with a longer cooldown (or a self-use survivability cooldown) to achieve that result.

Now, for the second half of your post: a Warrior's strengths extend far beyond AoE enmity generation. If all Warriors had was AoE enmity without damage, Paladins and Warriors would be more closely balanced against eachother. The issue here is that Warrior's are the strongest AoE damage dealers in the game, on top of having the highest AoE threat generation. They can effectively Single target DD, single target Tank, AoE DD, and AoE tank. Warriors can perform four roles effectively (and, pretty much, simultaneously). A Paladin can only single target Tank and single target DD. The lack of any AoE damage whatsoever is particularly painful: nearly every boss fight/endgame event in the game has some kind of AoE component atm, and a Paladin simply outputs nothing against more than one target.

Indeed. The funny part about this is that you can't outright nerf G.Axe damage because a G.Axe doing tiny damage would make no sense. Then again, SE's hesitance to use inherent enmity modifiers and different stat scaling per role has aggravated things. It'd be another story if WAR had to stack VIT/DEX to tank and STR/Acc to DPS with each benefiting the job differently depending on whether the WAR is tanking of DPSing.

We cannot damage Garuda's sisters while tanking her, we cannot hit multiple Moogles, we are virtually worthless in Strongholds, we cannot provide any AoE damage in hamlet, and we cannot help with Ifrit's nails (not saying we *should*, but Warriors at least have the option to do so). This is a major, major weakness, which will only grow as more content is added to the game.

100% agree.