@Devs: PLD/GLD and poor AoE enmity management. Intentional design choice?

[Duelle]

If we are meant to be the premier, specialized "Tank" of FFXIV, why is that we are so woefully inadequate in multi-mob situations? I can understand that you want WAR to have it's niche in AoE damage/AoE crowd control, but in effect this just makes Paladin a liability in Stronghold type situations. Since WAR can be an effective tank for BOTH AoE and Single Target, shouldn't Paladin as well?

I don't think we're going to or should be THE tank of FFXIV, but more of a member of a cadre of classes/jobs that can take the role of tank.

» Give us Circle Slash back with a decent threat modifier and/or an Enmity/Accuracy combo bonus. We badly need an AoE weaponskill, and since this was already programmed/animated it would be a simple fix.

Agreed. I'd make it the "heavy damage with notable cooldown" attack.

» Buff War Drum (Lower CD or increased Effect). As it stands, it simply offers too little enmity on too long of a CD. A single War Drum will almost never pull hate back off a WHM who was simply doing his job healing you, nevermind a DD who pressed an aoe button (or, god forbid, a BLM).

Agreed. I'd shorten the cooldown, keep the damage as is but give it an enmity multiplier (or buff it if there is one there already). War Drum should be the go to ability to get AoE aggro with Circle Blade being for damage as well as for oh-shit moments where you need group snap aggro.

» Add a passive trait that has a chance to reduce the cooldown on [War Drum] or [Flash] whenever we successful block an attack. This would create some interesting options for the player: we could pop Divine Veil/Outmaneuver either for mitigation or to spam War Drums.

100% agree. This is where the tanking game would become a little more reactive and strategy-oriented.

» Add a passive trait which reflects or inflicts some amount of holy damage whenever we block. This turns Divine Veil/Outmaneuver into potential AoE threat tools, and fits with the overall theme of Paladins.

I'm iffy on this, if only because Final Fantasy Paladins aren't really the type that can imbue their weapons and armor with holy energy. D&D and Warcraft paladins, sure. Blame it on Cecil for being a guy with a sword, Cover and some white magic. =P

» Make Phalanx AoE. Simple and effective. It could be argued that Phalanx is our version of Overpower, yet Phalanx does not have any special properties whatsoever. At the very least, shouldn't this be a high threat move?

I'd buff the damage of Phalanx and keep it single-target, assuming one of the other changes you suggested is made.

[ShivenCasull]

I don't think we're going to or should be THE tank of FFXIV, but more of a member of a cadre of classes/jobs that can take the role of tank.

Agreed. I'd make it the "heavy damage with notable cooldown" attack.

Agreed. I'd shorten the cooldown, keep the damage as is but give it an enmity multiplier (or buff it if there is one there already). War Drum should be the go to ability to get AoE aggro with Circle Blade being for damage as well as for oh-shit moments where you need group snap aggro.

War Drum would be at a good place with a 30 second CD instead of the current 60 seconds. Also, it would be great if it didn't require a block to activate. Having a setup time (block requirement), 60 second cool down, low damage even with the enimity modifier leaves it a lack luster skill.

I disagree with circle slash though. PLD's give up damage for healing and defense. With an improved WD a paladin could still function as an AOE tank without stepping in the burst AOE warriors provide.

[Duelle]

I disagree with circle slash though. PLD's give up damage for healing and defense. With an improved WD a paladin could still function as an AOE tank without stepping in the burst AOE warriors provide.

Which would then act against paladins if design decides to take tank DPS into account. Just trying to think of the future.

The whole "gives up offense for heals" is arbitrary and poor reasoning, because at the end of the day the tank roster has to be fairly equal if you want everyone to have a fair shot at their respective roles.

[ShivenCasull]

Which would then act against paladins if design decides to take tank DPS into account. Just trying to think of the future.

The whole "gives up offense for heals" is arbitrary and poor reasoning, because at the end of the day the tank roster has to be fairly equal if you want everyone to have a fair shot at their respective roles.

If Holy Succor was instant cast with an increased threat modifier (make it a 1:2 or better) the skill would fit with the "healing tank".

I don't mind having less damage for increased healing capabilities. Barring all other things, enemity generation should be fairly equal even if the mechanics are not. Besides, as long as a PLD can compete damage wise on a single target vs a WAR does it really matter?

Edit: So long as PLDs get a MP regen/re-coup passive that isn't attached to a sub optimal peice of equipment...

Though, with speed runs and super efficiency being #1 priority for most groups in FF I get where you're coming from.

[Duelle]

If Holy Succor was instant cast with an increased threat modifier (make it a 1:2 or better) the skill would fit with the "healing tank".

I'd willingly accept Holy Succor if it was a smart heal. Even then, I'd still try to push it down the priority list because as I said, the tank has other things to worry about.

So long as PLDs get a MP regen/re-coup passive that isn't attached to a sub optimal peice of equipment...

Cover's design and the AF bonus attached to it are flawed.There's plenty you could do with Cover that would make it useful without going to the ridiculous lengths the current design does. Then it'd be a matter of changing the AF body effect to something else.

but I think you might be onto a brilliant option for designing the paladin class.

combo idea:
Fast blade, Flat blade, followed by an option A: Instant Cure or B: Stasis sword.

Well, that's actually what I'm hoping Red Mage is designed around, as it clearly fits them well.

What I was getting at with the exclusion of Holy Knights is that you'd need a massive change in not only PLD but also how the armoury system works as well as the goals the devs have for each class. And if PLD could DPS using Holy Swordskills, I would just step out of the tank discussion and join groups as DPS instead.

[Skies]

I'm iffy on this, if only because Final Fantasy Paladins aren't really the type that can imbue their weapons and armor with holy energy. D&D and Warcraft paladins, sure. Blame it on Cecil for being a guy with a sword, Cover and some white magic. =P

Well, just to shed some light here. The FFTA/TA2 Paladin is actually a holy striker build with Holy Cross (AoE, cross-shaped centered on self) and Holy Sword (very heavy ST).
Also taking into the game Agrias, who might not exactly be a Paladin, we add in a lot of elemental-based damaged with status tacked on it.

Otherwise staying out of this discussion, I do like the design decision of "PLD as ST tank, WAR as GT tank" but i'm not sure the game is even properly balanced for that and my experience as tank is just not negative because I tanked 3 times, so i'll let the grown-ups discuss here.

[Duelle]

Well, just to shed some light here. The FFTA/TA2 Paladin is actually a holy striker build with Holy Cross (AoE, cross-shaped centered on self) and Holy Sword (very heavy ST).
Also taking into the game Agrias, who might not exactly be a Paladin, we add in a lot of elemental-based damaged with status tacked on it.

I purposely neglected to mention those because then I get the itch to suggest a Holy Knight offspec for PLD. Believe me, if I could somehow have my PLD throw out holy sword skills like Agrias does in Tactics, I would have given up on the tanking debate long ago because I would be too busy melting faces with Divine Blade/Stasis Sword. >.>;;

[ShivenCasull]

I purposely neglected to mention those because then I get the itch to suggest a Holy Knight offspec for PLD. Believe me, if I could somehow have my PLD throw out holy sword skills like Agrias does in Tactics, I would have given up on the tanking debate long ago because I would be too busy melting faces with Divine Blade/Stasis Sword. >.>;;

I hate to double post...

but I think you might be onto a brilliant option for designing the paladin class.

combo idea:
Fast blade, Flat blade, followed by an option A: Instant Cure or B: Stasis sword.

Balance PLD's MP generation around using abilities like this (Cure and SS having an MP cost) would make PLD probably the most entertaining class I could think of.