Skill trees and Alternate Advancement

[Gentaro]

how about subjobs

[Krausus]

That's whole point i was saying PGL IS GOOD FOR SOLO!!!!!! I even use it for fighting lvl 54 mobs cause they drop some of the items i sell!!!!

and my point is if you are doing solo content MNK is better if you are doing group content with a group MNK is better. You throw in pgl is better because I can do content made for a group with PGL because I can have more heals and buffs to make up for my lack of survivability (which you are supposed to have when facing group content solo). I wasn't arguing any of that. Of course you are going to do better vs them odds with more heals and buffs but like I said before no reason to go PGL for solo content.

[Firon]

and my point is if you are doing solo content MNK is better if you are doing group content with a group MNK is better. You throw in pgl is better because I can do content made for a group with PGL because I can have more heals and buffs to make up for my lack of survivability (which you are supposed to have when facing group content solo). I wasn't arguing any of that. Of course you are going to do better vs them odds with more heals and buffs but like I said before no reason to go PGL for solo content.

That made no fkin sense.

[Shurrikhan]

So, thread is about Alternate customization (not just class/job choices). Yet roughly half the posts now are...

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Quick note on Skill-Paths. Just about any MMO that has done the system justice has done so by basically finding different means to roughly the same ends. Separating by Fire/Thunder/Ice is going to severely lock out character usability.

(Whenever specialization is implemented it means higher maximums. Higher maximums mean a new standard for what's acceptable in a raid, or else overly easy content unless the skill trees are very well balanced and the fights are complex but free enough to use other ("non-maximal") specs effectively -- i.e. maximal has it's own variants between glass cannon, utility, etc.)

Separate by elemental themes, destruction, dispersion, debilitation, whatever, (BLM examples) such that all class elements are included under a different sort of focus, and you have more customized, still multi-usable characters instead.

[Fiosha_Maureiba]

They are. The question then is simply whether or not one can reach a satisfactory amount of uniqueness in niche or playstyle they enjoy through the class system, just as would be asked for any skill tree of any given class in any other MMO.

Back on point though. Whatever system is made for alternate advancement (i.e. not just levels and defaults) I'd like to start basically from the beginning. Heck, if you make the system out of parts leveled separately, let's say Traits, you might even be able to encourage that people make a "spec" out of their leveling experiences, rather than swapping to a forum spec at level 50, since it would take time to level those new traits (before selecting them as your active ones).

Basically, you keep gaining xp after level 50, just with no effect to your max level class. And this xp is spendable directly on leveling traits. Some paired traits (let's say Aegis Shield - more percentage damage taken healing vs. more healing from damage NOT taken / blocked) will automatically gain half of the xp spent on the other side, allowing fast swapping for those who have pooled xp into the ability. (I suppose this would also have to apply double xp effect once the other side is filled or people will always balance their xp pooling in order to spend less xp for max effect. There, fixed.)

Basically, take some of the traits that are already ability-specific or just the ones that are already cool enough as examples, but from each trait develop a foundation for diverging play-styles. In the above example, one would be more helpful to tanks, while the other would serve as a saving grace for non-tanks. These could perhaps be played on through another trait that boosts tp from blocking, or another trait that increases the maximum tp consumable on a block-counterattack (Phalanx) for additional damage based on recent amount of damage absorbed / blocked / what have it. In short, the total web of traits available should equally contribute to different possible play-styles. Traits can be adopted from other classes by spending a slight amount of xp (compared to the trait's original expenditure) in the class you want to move them to, i.e. converting traits.

If I had my druthers, I would prefer to see an alternate advancing type of system that can be engaged at level 1.

Character advancements and as the OP hath said, not gear/materia or leveling up one class/job. It would be neat if we gained little Job Points (JP) or AP as we complete leves, quests, behests, caravans, dungeons, hamlets, or defeating enemies (that would yield EXP). Putting this JP to develop said enhancements for our characters.

Again if I had me druthers, it would be something that you keep investing JP in and you gradually excel in the Discipline. But for the sake of balance, some type of cap on the number of abilities that can be purchased or armed at a single time. Perhaps these traits can only be changed at the inn or an aethryte. Or even use a Keeper of the Hymn to do so.

I think in regards to the stances and mindsets you had earlier, I did envision some sort of implementation of something similar in FF14 pre-launch fantasies. Considering where the game is going now, the most adjustment I can think of is how we gain TP. Whether the TP is gained by generating enmity, getting hit, dealing critical hits, attacking from the rear, landing an enfeebling effect, a successful attack spell, getting healed, healing someone else, etc. With each class/job finding some way to capitalize on that TP. (i.e. a stance not unlike a Pugilist or Marauder stances that mages consumed TP to enhance their spells in some fashion or another).

[DeadRiser]

No you're not, all you're teaching them is to do Ifrit on classes instead of jobs like it should be done. Go on jobs and teach them to do it right and that is relying on 1 to 2 healers. It will make them way way better players.

You just ignore everything I say and this is the last comment I reply with.

SH*T HAPPENS. WHM's die on accident sometimes or both healers get an eruption under them. I can back up heal for cases like that.

Stoneskin isn't up for either whm. I can AoE SS for the dd's.

Someone dies, I can raise while the healers focus on healing.

Somehting happens and one nail is still up, being as a MRD having a lot of HP and cures/raises. I will survive hellfire and heal/raise myself or others.

I'm not teaching them to play as a class, I'm helping them complete Ifrit multiple times so they can complete content themselves. But content can be done on with a mix of jobs and classes. It's not a bad thing to still play as a class.

[Shurrikhan]

Again if I had me druthers, it would be something that you keep investing JP in and you gradually excel in the Discipline. But for the sake of balance, some type of cap on the number of abilities that can be purchased or armed at a single time.

Considering where the game is going now, the most adjustment I can think of is how we gain TP. Whether the TP is gained by generating enmity, getting hit, dealing critical hits, attacking from the rear, landing an enfeebling effect, a successful attack spell, getting healed, healing someone else, etc. With each class/job finding some way to capitalize on that TP.

What exactly do you mean by "excel in the discipline"? Not critiquing, I'd just like to hear more.

And honestly I really do hope something like the Mindsets (different criteria for tp generation) do come out, even at this late time. I think, in the end, it would make up for the time spent on it, which is a lot of time, honestly. But at that point, one might as well go one step further and re-envision the combat system yet again, which, given past experience, probably isn't going to do much unless it's something drastic and just about perfect.

[Fiosha_Maureiba]

What exactly do you mean by "excel in the discipline"? Not critiquing, I'd just like to hear more.

And honestly I really do hope something like the Mindsets (different criteria for tp generation) do come out, even at this late time. I think, in the end, it would make up for the time spent on it, which is a lot of time, honestly. But at that point, one might as well go one step further and re-envision the combat system yet again, which, given past experience, probably isn't going to do much unless it's something drastic and just about perfect.

For excelling at a single discipline, I was thinking closer to "Job Points used for all classes". I was also thinking that the more Job Points that have been used, the more expensive abilities cost for all disciplines.

If say, the average player reaching end game would have amassed enough job points to acquire most of the abilities of a single skill path for the one class (i.e. if Gladiator had a protection skill path, a combat skill path, and a leader/captain skill path).

A player may decide that leveling all his/her other classes to 50, doesn't want to specialize in that class, decide to invest those job points toward Gladiator to finish out the remaining skill paths. Trying to master all the skill paths the Gladiator had available (or the equivalent of skill paths).

I started typing up a crazy amount of text, but went off on an insane/zany tangent.

edit: appending.
The scaled cost for abilities is intended to reward players who specialize sooner than players who seek to max all classes eventually. Players that continue to repeat primals, dungeons, caravans, faction leves, hamlets, material grinding, going for achievements, or spirit bond parties would continue to have another type of progression. Or even having that level 49 recently turned level 50 stick in the level-up party for a while longer, because it's still advancing.

A player may eventually unlock all of the skill paths for all disciples.

From a leatherworker that can apply an enhancement such as "increase movement speed by 10%" to any boots they make.
An armorer that can apply the boot enhancement to "increase bind resistance".
A miner that can mine the corpse of a golem or other rock-like creature.
A botanist that can chip some wood out of that Guardian of the Grove/Forest/Treant.
An archer that sometimes does not consume arrows when firing a shot.

Things here and there and everywhere (in addition to the usual stat enhancers like +8 healing magic potency or +2 control).

When that crafter (or gatherer) is going toward their achievement, fulfilling quotas, or just looking for profit, they're gradually becoming master craftsfolk, producing higher quality products with greater success.


This may not stop a player who ultimately wants to max out all classes. It may aid a player who insists on playing one class more than others and being able to perform it statistically better than non-specialists sooner. The scaled cost for abilities is intended to grant benefits sooner to those who specialize, but since there is no need to reset,

[Gunghir]

I'm all for customization of classes! Large and diverse skill/ability trees are one of my favorite parts of mmo's. The more I can make my character my own, the happier I am

[Duelle]

So for a quick example one blackmage wont have exactly the same skillsets as another blackmage, could specialise in fire damage and resistance with more hp and magic accuracy and new fire based skills, or you can choose the thunder path for more thunder dmg, mp, magic crit and thunder skills. etc etc. Dragoon can choose the wyvern pet path or the jumping path etc etc.

This is only possible if you design things so that a) all elements do the same amount of damage or b) each elemental specialization has its own mechanics and damage rotation.

The reason XI's merit system sucked was because it relied on the illusion of choice, specially for mages. Why would they put merits into fire potency when Thunder was their best bet for damage or Ice was their best bet for damage + utility. All black mages I knew either went 5/5 Thunder potency and then went 5/5 Burst II, or 5/5 Ice potency and then 5/5 Freeze II. Red Mages were "expected" to go 5/5 Ice Accuracy to get the most out of Blizzard and Bind (now if you were a loser like me, you probably spit on their expectations and went 5/5 convert, 2/5 ice and 3/5 fire because I like fire).

Melee weren't that better off because you always had one no-brainer merit in each category.

Personally, I'd go with something similar to talent trees but limited within the role of the job in question. Classes shouldn't really have alternate advancement, and instead it should fall into the jobs, IMO.