Warrior Material

[Molly_Millions]

I've never said that War abilties are useless. I'm saying that when you compare War damage to DD class damage it's a lot lower. Mighty Strikes does not miraculously increase War damage output so that it's suddenly on par with DD classes.

Frein listed abilities that DRG DD had over War. Why didn't she list Godsbane & Steelcyclone? Actually she did: Drg has a better WS arsenal. Meaning DRG ws > WAR ws.

You are the one focusing on single things Molly. Like Godsbane, so I gave you a single focus example with DragonKick. Frein was focussing on the total package and you nit-picked.

I'm not focussing on a sigle skill, you are. You compared godsbane to dragonkick. You can't do that because the total dmg output from a given class is a combined total of all the skills available to them. You cannot compare a single weaponskill on DRG to a single weaponskill on WAR and say DRG is better. You can't even say that single skill is better. You cannot create a 1:1 list and cross off abilities because the 'comparable' ability is better on one class vs the other, that's not taking the greater picture into account. You also cannot ignore secondary effects granted by combos, because it adds to the total DMG output for that class.

Now, to justify my addition of mighty strikes, it increases your damage output for a short amount of time. Godsbane does the same thing when used in a combo, albeit to a lesser extent, as does steel cyclone when used in a combo. You cannot ignore the increased damage of the critical hits following such attacks.

All that being said, DRG more than likely can do more damage than WAR as DD. My issue lies with the method of comparison. A list of skills is no proper test. Lets see parse results and empirical data, please.

[DeadRiser]

There's no point Molly. He won't give up.

[Frein]

I'm not focussing on a sigle skill, you are. You compared godsbane to dragonkick. You can't do that because the total dmg output from a given class is a combined total of all the skills available to them. You cannot compare a single weaponskill on DRG to a single weaponskill on WAR and say DRG is better. You can't even say that single skill is better. You cannot create a 1:1 list and cross off abilities because the 'comparable' ability is better on one class vs the other, that's not taking the greater picture into account. You also cannot ignore secondary effects granted by combos, because it adds to the total DMG output for that class.

Now, to justify my addition of mighty strikes, it increases your damage output for a short amount of time. Godsbane does the same thing when used in a combo, albeit to a lesser extent, as does steel cyclone when used in a combo. You cannot ignore the increased damage of the critical hits following such attacks.

All that being said, DRG more than likely can do more damage than WAR as DD. My issue lies with the method of comparison. A list of skills is no proper test. Lets see parse results and empirical data, please.

When I said better WS arsenal, I obviously assume you're going to use combos. Perhaps I should have said "better combo arsenal"? DRG combos produce more damage output than WAR combos do and are also more suitable for attacking from behind and the flanks. Godsbane has a crit mod, sure, that's included in my argument and it's still worse than DRG finishers even though it's the most powerful WAR DD WS. What makes you think I'd even imagine considering a WS without its combo(s)? Give me some credit. Besides, many DRG WS also have a crit mod. I also include the DRG's use of Keen Flurry in my "better WS arsenal" argument.

Mighty Strikes makes a very minor impact on your overall damage output during a typical gaming session. Crits in FFXIV are quite weak (only +15% damage) unless massively boosted by liberal use of Crit Potency, the duration is very short and the cooldown extremely long. It is simply a non-factor, which is why I didn't list it. I also didn't list the DRG 15 min ability, Dragonfire Dive, even though it likely deals more damage than Mighty Strikes does.

The list comaprison method is fine for making a qualitative, not a quantitative estimate. I can't tell exactly by how much DRG outdamages WAR, but I can very easily tell that it does, and most likely by a rather fair margin. This observation is supported by my in-game experiences of playing as both jobs.

[Hachi-Roku]

A list of skills is a pretty good test, especially when you're comparing exactly what tools they have for DD. The simple thing I'm going to get across here is that DRG has more opportunities to do its crazy levels of damage.

WAR's WS loadout:
Heavy Swing -> Skull Sunder -> Steel Cyclone (WAR)
Brutal Swing (Side) -> Maim -> Godsbane
Path of the Storm (Back) -> Whirlwind
Overpower
Fracture
Mighty Strikes (WAR)

DRG's WS loadout:
True Thrust -> Heavy Thrust
True Thrust -> Leg Sweep -> Doom Spike
Vorpal Thrust (Back) -> Impulse Drive (Side) -> Chaos Thrust
Vorpal Thrust (Back) -> Ring of Talons (DRG)
Feint -> Disembowel (DRG)
Full Thrust
Jump
Dragonfire Dive (DRG)

What restricts DoW classes/jobs from going all out on DPS is a combination of TP generation and cooldowns. In general, the more time there is between your large damage WSes due to either them being on cooldown or you not having enough TP due to misses/waiting for swings, the lower your overall DPS. This is vastly more true on high damage mobs (Ifrit) and much less so on trash mobs/lower DEF bosses.

WAR's tools for damage are simple. Three attack trees: front, back, side, with 30s/60s/80s cooldowns on the combo enders respectively. Two of them end in AoEs, which is good times since SE makes us fight multiple mobs on more than one occasion. Then there's Overpower and Fracture, which are good in a TP-to-Damage-ratio but only occur when the WAR has hate, because they're being attacked. I suppose you could do something like keep a lesser mob alive and attacking you from the front in order to keep procing Fracture (40s cooldown) or Overpower (5s, much better) but in the latter situation, the lesser mob may die before long due to being hit that much! Berserk has been granted a buff lately, and I'm curious on how its actual numbers parse these days. I wish I knew- these days when I go WAR it's always as the main tank. Still, I pop Mighty Strikes whenever I go for a Godsbane combo, keeping me at full health.

DRG has, simply put, more tools for damage. It doesn't have a combo that starts from the side, only front and back. By comparison, however, it has four combo ending moves: Heavy Thrust, Doomspike, Chaos Thrust, and Ring of Talons on 20s/60s/80s/60s timers. Feint and Full Thrust proc on misses, something that can and will naturally happen on any content since 100% ACC is impossible- though since the removal of ACC penalties on DRG WSes, doing a multihit and counting on a miss to go immediately into Feint->Disembowel is no longer an option (a DRG in my LS was slightly saddened by this). Disembowel is technically another end to a combo, 30s, but of course it all has to begin with a miss. Jump is free damage/TP every 60s. Dragonfire Dive is okay. At least Power Surge's buff can be and has been numerically tracked-- something like +300 attack power? Definitely something worth keeping up.

However, DRG also has Keen Flurry, which helps reduce the problem of cooldowns restricting your DPS, as well as Invigorate, which reduces the problem of 'not enough TP.' And then there's Blood for Blood which gives free damage every 45s, 60s on a sub. I'm half-convinced that if you wanted to DD as WAR that you should go MRD instead just to get those three moves for Godsbane and Whirlwind.

Hilariously, MNK's loadout of WS cooldowns looks much like WARs, but I don't think anyone here is going to argue that MNK can easily be overtaken by a WAR.

[Molly_Millions]

Since this thread wasn't meant to be a comparison of WAR to DRG, lets get back on topic. We should be discussing how to make the best WAR DD (or tank for that matter) possible rather than comparing to another class.

I'm half-convinced that if you wanted to DD as WAR that you should go MRD instead just to get those three moves for Godsbane and Whirlwind.

By doing that, you'd lose out on +20 crit rate, that works out to about a 4% reduction in in the number of crits. Is it worth it? Maybe. In addition to the reduction in the number of crits, you also lose out on aoe on MRD, so it would really depend on what you're fighting.

[Hachi-Roku]

Just so long as we're not drinking the kool-aid as to how MRD/WAR's damage output is in relation to other classes.

By doing that, you'd lose out on +20 crit rate, that works out to about a 4% reduction in in the number of crits. Is it worth it? Maybe. In addition to the reduction in the number of crits, you also lose out on aoe on MRD, so it would really depend on what you're fighting.

Does going WAR give you +20 crit rate? Honest question, I honestly don't know if this is true or what.

[Molly_Millions]

Just so long as we're not drinking the kool-aid as to how MRD/WAR's damage output is in relation to other classes.

Does going WAR give you +20 crit rate? Honest question, I honestly don't know if this is true or what.

If you are wearing the WAR af hat and pants, then yes each gives you +10 crit rate. IMO, the af hat is the best piece for the slot for a WAR DD, and the pants are damn close if you don't have some pants with double melded Ironman's will IV. (That synth eludes me like the Loch Ness Monster.) You could make that up by melding crit rate materia to some pants, but I don't like to rely on items that expensive in my build theories.

[Hachi-Roku]

To be fair the WAR AF head is really good and most head slots for WAR, regardless of DD or tanking, are pretty lame due to lack of good materia choices. On the flip side, while I know the formula for crit rate has changed, I don't know if the crit damage calculations have changed at all, or if everyone is still getting around +15% damage to crits without gearing for it. Even then, that's not really something you can gear for without giving up your body slot which should have either HP or VIT in it, or your Axe slot which should either be a Primal weapon or have +emnity (or +attack power if you're DD).

I'm not going to sweat losing around 4% to do +15% damage, even when crits heal me, because I normally crit on the big WSes as it is either tanking or DDing (Blindside).

[Molly_Millions]

To be fair the WAR AF head is really good and most head slots for WAR, regardless of DD or tanking, are pretty lame due to lack of good materia choices. On the flip side, while I know the formula for crit rate has changed, I don't know if the crit damage calculations have changed at all, or if everyone is still getting around +15% damage to crits without gearing for it. Even then, that's not really something you can gear for without giving up your body slot which should have either HP or VIT in it, or your Axe slot which should either be a Primal weapon or have +emnity (or +attack power if you're DD).

I'm not going to sweat losing around 4% to do +15% damage, even when crits heal me, because I normally crit on the big WSes as it is either tanking or DDing (Blindside).

Honestly, I'd only put HP on a chest piece for tanking. For DD you can most certainly choose crit attack power over VIT or HP, or even do a combination of VIT and crit attack power. If you're going DD, VIT is less of a concern, because damage mitigation is not your primary objective when choosing gear. But that's not to ignore the added damage you get from stacking VIT. I'm guessing that since savage might materia has such large numbers on it that it could amount to more damage than you would gain from VIT. I'd be interested in seeing some comparisons and actual parse results though.

*edit: with some quick math, I think that the 4% reduction in the number of crits (from using mrd over war) amounts to a .6% reduction your total damage output assuming there is no change in crit potency or other stats. Can you easily make up for that .6% damage reduction by stacking ironman's will on your pants? Probably, but in that case maybe it's better to just use those pants on WAR.

[Hachi-Roku]

I'm fairly certain I can make up .6% of my overall DPS by putting an Ironman's Will I single meld on my pants, c'mon now.