ZAM gave up on FFXIV?

[Zyph]

The way our system works is if you update an item/ability, it will update on any page on the wiki where it's listed. That way you don't have to make a bunch of edits on a bunch of pages for the same time.

That... makes... a whole lot of sense actually. Very object oriented.


Alright, with those things in mind I think I'll go back to trying to improve the wiki like I used to. Thanks for the explanation!

[Veltaine]

very much appreciated for the fill in FusionX. i never expected such a great explanation, and just knowing that there is more than a couple sites for reference (i like to cross check) makes me very excited to continue and contribute where i can to the cool guys like you who dedicate far more time to things like this

well said

[Riv]

My issue with the wiki is it doesn't seem as clear cut as FFXIclopedia was.

[Cthulhu]

Way back at launch, ZAM was the horse I bet on. Everything seemed to be going well, then the forums because such a pit of vitriol I stopped reading them and only used it for items and synths. Then they never really recovered from all the changes of patch 1.18, so I didn't go there for that anymore either. I'm not sure if ZAM abandoned FFXIV or the FFXIV playerbase abandoned them. Then end result is the same though.

[NationOfZealots]

Zam, YG & Gamerescape are all pretty bad at keeping up to date with all the updates, I don't understand why since the official site/lodestone lists each and every change... just lazy mods wanting to build up a FFXIV community then realise they have to put some effort into actually keep information up to date. eg Gamerescape doesn't even have a page on (The Aurum Vale) lol fail... and mooglebox never used it as official site/disciplesofthehand seems enough for me atm

[Fusionx]

Zam, YG & Gamerescape are all pretty bad at keeping up to date with all the updates, I don't understand why since the official site/lodestone lists each and every change... just lazy mods wanting to build up a FFXIV community then realise they have to put some effort into actually keep information up to date. eg Gamerescape doesn't even have a page on (The Aurum Vale) lol fail... and mooglebox never used it as official site/disciplesofthehand seems enough for me atm

We have a group of people that put a lot of work and free time in to keep things up to date and accurate. Gahoo put it better than I ever could.

We are well aware that there isn't a page for the Aurum Vale and we have been working on components to put into a raid template such as: http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Template_talk:Chest

Also, you know, you could always make the pages that are missing instead of complaining about them missing. Again, its not just the mods that run and populate the site. It's everyone. I feel like people keep missing the whole point of a community wiki. We're not a database site that updates itself.

[Fusionx]

That... makes... a whole lot of sense actually. Very object oriented.


Alright, with those things in mind I think I'll go back to trying to improve the wiki like I used to. Thanks for the explanation!

Glad the explanation made sense! and props for any contributions you make!

[Cthulhu]

My highest ranking gripe with Gamerescape isn't a lack of missing pages, it's that any information seems so hard to actually get too. Even if every page and article was present and fleshed out it's just painful trying to find it. This was my opinion when I first checked it out pre-launch through the early stage of the game and I just checked back in with the site and I still find this to be the case. And the podcasts, oh my the podcasts. I'm giving Aetheryte Radio another shot as I write this so we'll see if things have improved.

(So the content of the podcast seems to have improved greatly, but FusionX your audio. What are you doing to the human voice over there?)

[Haibel]

My issue with the wiki is it doesn't seem as clear cut as FFXIclopedia was.

Was is the optimal word. I like FFXIclopedia 3 years ago before they changed the way the front page was setup.
it was much easier to get to the info I was looking for then the way it's set-up now.

[gahoo]

Glad to see some constructive comments. Restores my faith a bit to be honest. Few more comments (sorry to derail a ZAM thread, but tbh I think they really did basically give up on the game, so not sure it matters. Also, as a corporate site, not really sure anyone would be here representing them anyway).

First, a comment on history. Keep in mind that we started adding content to FFXIclopedia in March 2005 (software was installed in November 2004) and it took about a year to really get going. But, bear in mind that was with stable content. Here with 14 we have (as you all know) not only changing content, but changing elements to the content. Wikis adhere to a snowball effect. The longer they are around, the more is added, the more helpful they become. We're rolling along nicely. The changes to the whole structure of 14 has proven very difficult to say the least, but we're rolling on.

Second, as Fusionx stated, we made some major changes to how we did things the first time around with respect to how the wiki handles data. Understand, with the 11 wiki, everything is static. Say you add a crafted weapon to the game. You need to create that page, then update all associated pages. That means all item pages being used as ingredients. Potentially pages where the completed weapon is used as an ingredient. All quest or mission pages where the item can be acquired. All crafting lists (this could be more than one list). All weapon lists (this is often more than one list). If a mob drops the weapon also then the mob page needs to be updated, along with the zone or dungeon page where that mob is from. Etc. etc. etc. One item could necessitate a dozen or more edits after the page itself is created. This can be a very real problem as the game goes into year 2, 3 or 4, let alone year 8, 9 or 10. The 11 wiki was able to keep up for a time, but it became increasingly difficult as time went on. And this was a problem we wanted to solve.

The way we solved that was somewhat complex on the back-end, but as Fusionx stated, it means that data resides in one place only, and then the other pages grab that data and the wiki keeps itself updated automatically. While this concept might be easy for a database site, it is not for a wiki. Basically what we have created this time around is a user edited database. So if you add an item with a recipe - all ingredient pages will update. If you update a monster page with a new drop, that item page will now reflect that it is dropped by a mob (and the mob's level and location) - plus the zone pages will update, mob family pages will update, etc. etc.

This is, IMO, a massive advantage over conventional wikis. Wiki's tend to pretty easily fall into disrepair or obsolescence - and we wanted to avoid that. That might be OK with a static product/game - but not great for an MMO. The downside to this system is that the data entry is different (IMO easier, but certainly different than a standard wiki).

Instead of a blank page where you can just type and you see what you type, most things get added via a template. It is the template that is doing all of the above dirty work keeping everything updated across the wiki. It also means that you need to know where the data is stored (since it is only in one place). If you are on an item page and want to update a particular drop rate, you need to do it on the mob page - since that is where that data resides. I certainly get why this can cause confusion - and will think about ways to make knowing where to go easier. But it comes with the system and frankly I think after a minimum of effort knowing where the info is becomes pretty self-explanatory.

Anyway, that's maybe more info than was needed, but I want people to understand why we departed from the static approach we took with FFXIclopedia back in 2004.

Third, on why stuff is missing. Goes with the above a bit - its a slow process, especially on some of the more unique things like some of the raids and such. But again, I don't think it is fair to pick out a missing page as if that page exists somewhere else. Sure we don't have an Aurum Veil page, but does anyone? Does anyone have any zone pages except the wiki? Anyone else even have a Gridania page? Let alone Greatloam Growery page or Hyrstmill page? I get that you can find some missing info, and we're working to fill in gaps (and anyone could put something on that page as a start even if they didn't want to mess with templates - although looking at The Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak would be an easy place to start) but not sure selecting some missing information from a wiki that already contains more information than any other site is particularly fair.

Finally, as for layout or finding content. As before, can't please everyone, so we try our best. We'll continue to look at the visuals, but have been really spending out time trying to keep up with an ever-changing structure as dictated by SE. As for finding content, if you have comments on the right side navigation I would love to hear them, as that is a very easy fix. In fact, you can actually create your own personalized navigation very easily. Just log in and go to http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Sp...MyPage/Wikinav and add * for each article/link (more info found here under Wikinav).

Ok. Sorry for the length. Hopefully a few bothered to read it and of those that did found it helpful/informative/useful.