Why is the FF14 Community So Adverse to Banter?

[JohnLakeside]

Someone doesn't know any actual Japanese people, or has ever been to the East lol

I know many people here feel Japan and the Japanese are some great people who value community and others above all else to the point they are held in a nearly sacred light like some divine other. But if you actually are friends with, talk with or play with people from Japan, they just like every other human being walking this planet, they are (now sit down cause this may shake you to your core) no different than any other human and in fact can and do trash talk. My Japanese roommate years ago would have some of the most colorful language I have ever heard while gaming. Her ability to trash talk was actually impressive and would and did put most westerners to shame. Listening to her game was usually more entertaining than any game I could have played myself.

I know this doesn't compute for a lot of people, but holding any national or racial group up to a higher standard and believing them to be superior, is in fact very racist and we all need to do better.

People like that typically don't actually think Japanese people are better. They just view them as well-behaved little boys and girls. I've played on HK's and JP's Valorant servers. They definitely trash talk. And by trash talk, I mean real trash talk. Not just lighthearted competitive banter lol. Its actually hilarious that the person you replied to is suggesting that Asian games aren't replete with their own "dudebros." Wahahaha.

[0blivion]

Someone doesn't know any actual Japanese people, or has ever been to the East lol

I know many people here feel Japan and the Japanese are some great people who value community and others above all else to the point they are held in a nearly sacred light like some divine other. But if you actually are friends with, talk with or play with people from Japan, they just like every other human being walking this planet, they are (now sit down cause this may shake you to your core) no different than any other human and in fact can and do trash talk. My Japanese roommate years ago would have some of the most colorful language I have ever heard while gaming. Her ability to trash talk was actually impressive and would and did put most westerners to shame. Listening to her game was usually more entertaining than any game I could have played myself.

I know this doesn't compute for a lot of people, but holding any national or racial group up to a higher standard and believing them to be superior, is in fact very racist and we all need to do better.

I think you are reading a lot into my post. I'm saying Western MMORPGs, i.e. Western produced MMORPGs, tend to have toxic dudebro culture. In the heyday of bad F2P KR MMORPGs, the communities I'd witnessed were varying levels of toxic during arguments the younger the users were, but none of that "bro culture" BS OP is talking about. The normal conversations outside of arguments were sincere or quiet or nonexistent, much like FFXIV. OP themselves named RuneScape (British) and GW2 (South Korean publisher and parent company, but USian developer) as examples. Yes, JP communities are toxic but in a different flavor, but that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is the weird self-satisfied reddit bro culture you see on stuff like WoW and RuneScape.

So tell me where in your grandiose accusation did you read I am speaking of Japanese people specifically? I derided Western games for a reason. It's not about where the players are from, it's about the way the game is developed and, to an extent, what kind of people the game's visual presentation attracts.

Like... get off your own high horse about your JP roommate, lol. I'm well aware the JP community can be toxic. Some of the most insane transphobia I've experienced was in Japan, and I feel you'd need to live under a rock to not know about shit like workplace bullying, hidden insults and whatever is going on on 2ch. You can try this holier-than-thou attitude with someone who actually idolizes Japan, but that's not me.

On average, Western MMOs simply attract more (often bigoted) dudebros. That's all there is to it.

e/: Point in case, Valorant is a Western developed game. Congratulations on proving my point!

[JohnLakeside]

I think you are reading a lot into my post. I'm saying Western MMORPGs, i.e. Western produced MMORPGs, tend to have toxic dudebro culture. In the heyday of bad F2P KR MMORPGs, the communities I'd witnessed were varying levels of toxic during arguments the younger the users were, but none of that "bro culture" BS OP is talking about. The normal conversations outside of arguments were sincere or quiet or nonexistent, much like FFXIV. OP themselves named RuneScape (British) and GW2 (South Korean publisher and parent company, but USian developer) as examples. Yes, JP communities are toxic but in a different flavor, but that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is the weird self-satisfied reddit bro culture you see on stuff like WoW and RuneScape.

So tell me where in your grandiose accusation did you read I am speaking of Japanese people specifically? I derided Western games for a reason. It's not about where the players are from, it's about the way the game is developed and, to an extent, what kind of people the game's visual presentation attracts.

Like... get off your own high horse about your JP roommate, lol. I'm well aware the JP community can be toxic. Some of the most insane transphobia I've experienced was in Japan, and I feel you'd need to live under a rock to not know about shit like workplace bullying, hidden insults and whatever is going on on 2ch. You can try this holier-than-thou attitude with someone who actually idolizes Japan, but that's not me.

On average, Western MMOs simply attract more (often bigoted) dudebros. That's all there is to it.

e/: Point in case, Valorant is a Western developed game. Congratulations on proving my point!

We're talking about communities here. So how, in any way, is it logical to ignore those communities and say its about the where the game was developed? Your whole theory collapses when you look at the very game we are playing. FF14's developed in Japan, but is NA FF14's culture the same as Japan's? No lol. Yeah, both are quiet communities, but thats as far as the similarities go lol. Your claim that Western-developed game = Western dudebro culture is just so utterly fanciful. What is the actual mechanism you're trying to suggest? American source code contain trace amounts of bro culture or something? I specifically mentioned playing on HK and JP Valorant servers. Riot being an American developer doesn't magically turn Japanese, Hong Konger, Vietnamese, Korea, etc players into American reddit bros. Imo, you're illustrating something that is so darn common in Westerners that love to larp as Asiaphiles. You act as if Asians aren't capable of forming their own cultural norms and are sooooo easily influenced by Western sensibilities. Cmon now.

[CNitsah]

I love how OP went from "silly banter" (which is fine) to "Bro culture" before someone pointing that "sit lol" come from the same dark corners of the gamer community that gave us nice thing like the gamergate and the incel community. No wonder people don't really react to that positively. I don't know about OSRS, but WoW is still plagued with this mentality, and that's part of why people continue to say the community is toxic.

Here is a rule of the thumb. Ask yourself if you would talk that way to someone you never met IRL and how he would react : If your answer is anywhere between "he would be pissed" and "he would hit me in the face". You maybe telling it in a game is not a good idea. Especially since with written text, everything non verbal is left out of the conversation.

Your way of communication based on banter is often used by teenagers and young adults (but more often than not, they instinctively only use it in their social circle, not with complete strangers), but in a Final Fantasy mmo, which is a franchise mainly popular with millenials between 30 and 40, that sells itself as a chill mmo focused on the story with barely any competitive content (pvp), you'll have a hard time finding people that still use that way of communication. It probably exists, but good luck finding it.

[0blivion]

snip

I'm saying that if your game looks like a vaguely ugly high fantasy setting with little incentive beyond the main gameplay, you're more likely to encounter the type of people who like that. The average JP FFXIV player is gonna be less insufferable than the average JP WoW player, primarily because of advertising, visual design, game philosophies in general (ratio of main gameplay to side activities etc) attracting players who aren't obnoxious dudebros. It's not that non-Western players adapt or whatever fanfic you're writing about my post, it's that the games invite a certain kind of player. Same goes for Western players and such. See also: I have friends who are super nice in FFXIV but turn into absolute assholes in some other games.

There's Western studios that do it right, but it's exceedingly rare.

[Eikthyrnir]

This is the exact language and attitude I was talking about demeaning people. There are tons of people who enjoy light-hearted back-and-forth with people they meet in a game.
Of course there's levels of banter.
Of course you'd crank it up for friends but not so much for randos.
It's still in the same realm. It's still a way of connecting people, and that connection is the heart and soul of MMOs. It's fine if it's not your way of connecting with others, you are very welcomed to play the game in your ways, but don't grandstand as if you were a better person than them because you don't like their way of having harmless fun.

Nah.......

[0blivion]

I love how OP went from "silly banter" (which is fine) to "Bro culture" before someone pointing that "sit lol" come from the same dark corners of the gamer community that gave us nice thing like the gamergate and the incel community. No wonder people don't really react to that positively.

Here is a rule of the thumb. Ask yourself if you would talk that way to someone you never met IRL and how he would react : If your answer is anywhere between "he would be pissed" and "he would hit me in the face". You maybe telling it in a game is not a good idea.

Also, this, lol. The reason why I reacted the way I did is that OP is inexplicably glorifying that cesspit while also seemingly trying to push the "oh you're just too sensible" angle. Like, no. lol

[Thurmnmurmn]

This thread is hilarious.
A bunch of people who can't stand someone making a joke they don't like and try to make it way worse then it actually is.
Like the red mage joke op said sounds a whole lot like a Highlander reference to me.

As long as it's not against TOS, there's no need for you to respond with vitriol. Just ignore and move on.
You may not like that type of banter but others clearly do as shown in this thread (myself included).

Like I can't imagine how everyday to day life would be with that high of blood pressure.
Must be tiring.

[JohnLakeside]

I love how OP went from "silly banter" (which is fine) to "Bro culture" before someone pointing that "sit lol" come from the same dark corners of the gamer community that gave us nice thing like the gamergate and the incel community. No wonder people don't really react to that positively. I don't know about OSRS, but WoW is still plagued with this mentality, and that's part of why people continue to say the community is toxic.

Here is a rule of the thumb. Ask yourself if you would talk that way to someone you never met IRL and how he would react : If your answer is anywhere between "he would be pissed" and "he would hit me in the face". You maybe telling it in a game is not a good idea. Especially since with written text, everything non verbal is left out of the conversation.

Your way of communication based on banter is often used by teenagers and young adults (but more often than not, they instinctively only use it in their social circle, not with complete strangers), but in a Final Fantasy mmo, which is a franchise mainly popular with millenials between 30 and 40, that sells itself as a chill mmo based on the story with barely any competitive content (pvp), you'll have a hard time finding people that still use that way of communication. It probably exists, but good luck finding it.

So...if you were at FanFest, playing a duty on one of the computers set up for convention-goers, and you died, and a girl behind you jokingly said, “Sit,” and laughed, you would get legitimately upset with her/hit her?

[Evermomo]

So...if you were at FanFest, playing a duty on one of the computers set up for convention-goers, and you died, and a girl behind you jokingly said, “Sit,” and laughed, you would get legitimately upset with her/hit her?

That'd be an incredibly rude thing to do to a stranger.