could a transgender woman be the nunh of a tribe?

[decaf3681]

alternatively, could a transmasc be a nunh, considering they don't have the capability to be a "breeding male"? or would they be the one to carry sires?

[Zero-ELEC]

That's an interesting question, actually. Miqo'te Seekers of the Sun social dynamics are based loosely on lion prides, and there have been cases of lionesses becoming the "leading male" of a pride, growing manes, etc. While it's hard to apply human gender roles to wild animals, this could be analogous to a transmasc nunh.

Similarly, if we just consider the "breeding" part of the social dynamic necessary for the title of nunh, I wouldn't find it impossible for a trans woman to receive that title, though I would expect that to be contentious to some.

We also enter the part of Seeker of the Sun dynamics that is a bit unclear with added lore, where males that "rule over a territory" are still given the title nunh, according to Y'shtola, which she says could apply to G'raha as Crystal Exarch. Could such a title apply to a female of the tribe, even if she is not a breeding partner?

[Cleretic]

EDIT: I've realized I should probably lead by forewarning that a lot of discussion about this if we keep going, even if held in good faith, is inevitably gonna feel real bad to trans people. We're talking about some heavily gendered societies in a game that focuses a lot on themes of bigotry and discrimination; it's REALLY unlikely that transphobia is the one form of bigotry that just doesn't exist in Eorzea and that nobody would have any problems.


But on the subject: this does hit a weird situation of, essentially, exactly how bioessentialist the more gendered societies in FFXIV's world are, and we just don't have those answers.

What I would point out is that there's a bunch of different tribes (at least twenty-six) that run the gamut in terms of social progressiveness; they've all got the nunh-centric structure, but you've got the definitely more conservative U tribe in comparison to the most likely more progressive Y tribe. We also see things aren't necessarily set in stone with the M tribe, who have some societal change going on when we meet them.

My gut feel is that the answer is 'maybe' on all of this, and it might change based on any number of factors, possibly down to and including 'how much does everyone like this person'; I can very easily see an entire tribe suddenly getting real bioessentialist real fast if it meant ostracizing the person they don't want around, or suddenly being completely cool with it if it turns out the golden child's got some new pronouns. I'd love to say that everyone would be cool with it no matter what, but that just isn't necessarily realistic.

[decaf3681]

EDIT: I've realized I should probably lead by forewarning that a lot of discussion about this if we keep going, even if held in good faith, is inevitably gonna feel real bad to trans people. We're talking about some heavily gendered societies in a game that focuses a lot on themes of bigotry and discrimination; it's REALLY unlikely that transphobia is the one form of bigotry that just doesn't exist in Eorzea and that nobody would have any problems.

Fair. As a transgender person myself, I was moreso just curious what thoughts other people had on this topic, and couldn't find any other threads discussing it.

Your answer makes sense though. The Miqo'te tribes aren't exactly a monolith, nor a hivemind (though the latter is debatable given some of the freaks I've seen in Lominsa...) and naturally would all have differing views. It would probably just be on a tribe-to-tribe basis. Still a fun thought experiment though

[Cilia]

As someone who is not transgender, my opinion isn't worth much. However, looking at it from a biological (not sociological or psychological) angle -

My read is the "nunh" title is a biological role - breeding male, not necessarily a leader or anything. There is a difference between being biologically male and having a male identity; presumably a transgender woman could still become nunh because that's about siring offspring, not being the leader or identifying as male.

Conversely, a transgender male could not be nunh because he would not be equipped for the role. There are two qualifications, and he hasn't got one of them.

Granted, as a fantasy game that has not dealt much with monoracial Miqo'te societies, who knows. Magic is a thing, but gender reassignment options (other than Fantasia, which is a sort of canon thing) haven't been explored since they are not a focus of the plot and it's never been an issue NPCs angst over. More diverse gender identities are acknowledged in-universe (Enuo is only ever referred to with gender neutral "them" pronouns, for the most recent example) but this specific issue with Miqo'te has not been addressed; until it is (if ever it is) I say just follow your headcanon.

[Hazelx3]

I mean that's a possibility, as fantasias exist in the game. They probably would be accepted, even when I read through the lore that a nunh is basically responsible for the breeding stuff.
Even if they wouldn't use a fantasia, technically if they are the strongest and defeat the current nunh, they should become one. Then it depends on the other miqote's what they'll do / or accept him.
Same could be for the viera, if a male is born but identifies as a female, she would be still in the tribe and wouldn't be outside and later on she could use a fantasia for changing the gender.
I am a transgender myself and in the real world, its much more difficult to do changes, but still possible. In FFXIV anyone can just a fantasia and change everything.

[Cleretic]

My read is the "nunh" title is a biological role - breeding male, not necessarily a leader or anything.

So, the role of the nunh is actually one of a leader, and is debatably more political than reproductive. That is on paper a primary role, but the nunh is the tribe's patriarch, their leader and representative in all respects. We've seen this with the M tribe in Ala Mhigo in particular; the 'breeding male' part isn't even really the thing being focused on with the fight for taking on the role, and the political element is considerably more vital. (There's also the land-owner element but I think that's secondary here.)

Again, none of this would logically be subject to set-in-stone rules in-universe; the suncat tribes are societies run by people of different outlooks. But according to what we've seen, the 'breeding male' part of the job is relatively minor in practice even if it is the literal job title, which I think means it could go either way for both trans men and trans women; it's just another part of the equation that every tribe would go through when faced with this question, and some are probably going to dismiss that as irrelevant while others are going to consider that an essential task (or claim that it's essential, because again, some of these are gonna be driven more by 'I don't like this person' than actual rules).

Now, if we want to get really nerdy we then hit the question of what a tribe would do with, effectively, a sterile nunh. In that situation, a trans man as nunh is probably at least a situation with certainty; you know they can't father a child, while someone who's just plain old sterile might well end up in the role for a while before someone figures it out. Do they just... deputize another person to do that part of the job?

[Keichi]

Its at least unlikely, that the person would be the only Nunh of the tribe than.
It is stated, that it exist rare cases with multiple Nunhs in a tribe. The role of a Nunh is mostly decided with combat. You challenge the other Nunh for his position. In theory should it be possible, that a female/transgender challenge a Nunh for his position. If that person wins, should that person obtain the title.
The bigger question would than be, what happens next? Only the Nunh is allowed to mate with the females. And it seems to be a important duty (how do they take care of incesst?). The transgender Nunh wouldnt be able to do that. They would need either a true male, who get that title to (maybe the former Nunh). Or, the new one has to deal with a lot of males, who would very likely challenge them. And, has to deal with all the angry females of the tribe. Who can not make new children than. A big risk for the whole tribe.

[Hazelx3]

I mean the world of FFXIV is full of magic, so I think if someone is born, but is in the wrong gender, they could change that easily through some "magic" or a Fantasia, that would be probably the reason why every character in the game looks no different. I mean, you can even bring dead people to live in this game (if their soul is still in the body) so a lot stuff is possible.
Otherwise the Sunseeker lore wouldn't make much sense. If only the nunh is allowed to breed, but can't do that, the tribe won't have new Sun Seekers and disappear, unless they have someone who does the breeding part. I think that no other race works like the Sun Seekers, even the Moon Keepers live in normal families they choose themselves but don't have Nunh or Tia male Miqotes

[Cilia]

So, the role of the nunh is actually one of a leader, and is debatably more political than reproductive. That is on paper a primary role, but the nunh is the tribe's patriarch, their leader and representative in all respects. We've seen this with the M tribe in Ala Mhigo in particular; the 'breeding male' part isn't even really the thing being focused on with the fight for taking on the role, and the political element is considerably more vital. (There's also the land-owner element but I think that's secondary here.)

Now, if we want to get really nerdy we then hit the question of what a tribe would do with, effectively, a sterile nunh. In that situation, a trans man as nunh is probably at least a situation with certainty; you know they can't father a child, while someone who's just plain old sterile might well end up in the role for a while before someone figures it out. Do they just... deputize another person to do that part of the job?

To be fair, we've only really interacted with two monoracial Miqo'te socieities (the U tribe in southern Thanalan and the M tribe in the Fringes), both of whom do feature a politically powerful and active nunh. That said, that's... 2 out of 26 tribes (assuming there aren't more that go beyond the standard alphabet, like the "Aa" tribe etc.) accounted for; it's reasonable to assume the same holds true for the rest, but we don't know for sure and the official nunh status is just "breeding male." It's anyone's guess whether the other two dozen tribes operate the same way. (As to why we've never seen much of Miqo'te tribal politics centered on breeding rights... it's not a focus of the story, and use your imagination. Or don't.)

In the event of a sterile nunh the most likely outcomes would be the females leave and join other tribes, hook up with stray Tias and start new tribes, or just stick with him in spite of his inability to produce offspring. If a fertile male doesn't take the nunh position for too long, the tribe would just die out (and then someone could come take their letter, I guess).

If only the nunh is allowed to breed, but can't do that, the tribe won't have new Sun Seekers and disappear, unless they have someone who does the breeding part. I think that no other race works like the Sun Seekers, even the Moon Keepers live in normal families they choose themselves but don't have Nunh or Tia male Miqotes

Basically, yes; but the nunh position is given to the strongest male in the supposition that he will produce the strongest offspring that have a better chance at surviving. Tribal stuff.

Keepers of the Moon Miqo'te actually have matriarchal societies, though we interact with them even less than the Seekers. I don't recall a time in the MSQ we directly dealt with a Keeper tribe, or where they have a settlement! I also don't recall whether they have the gender imbalance issue Seekers do (probably, but being matriarchal it isn't as political to them?).

While no other race / tribe follows the same tribal breeding politics as the Seekers, Hrothgar have the opposite problem (more males than females). Assuming they procreate at the same rate as humans, anyone who's studied basic biology could tell you such a species would have a difficult time maintaining a population. Having said that we've never been given information regarding Queen selection, male breeding rights, gestation time, litter size (assuming more than one child is the norm), etc. so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(The game is not about these things.)