Please Reconsider Splitting Main and Off-Tank Roles Based on Job

[whiskeybravo]

I did want to point out how you criticize the idea of people saying tanks being overly homogenized as an overly reductionist idea, but you're doing exactly that right here with by just assuming the new counter would be nothing more than Shield Swipe.

Perhaps, but it's only 1 of 2 examples we've ever seen of their idea of a "counter". The other at least standing the test of time, just not as a counter. They could just design the new tank to be the counter tank, or you know, just add/change abilities that function as counters, or any other type of gimmick they come with up, without forcing a paradigm shift on the entire role. And, I understand they want to keep people on the drip for what they're actually doing, but come on - lead with the bombshell first - Not something you're resurrecting from the grave.

[Mukuku]

I understand the concern surrounding it and see it as an open discussion, but I do see a lot of people acting... disingenuous.

It's more that people are concerned about the game going back to some design decisions that have been proven problematic in the past.

Counters might have a different implementation than Shield Swipe, but they fundamentally still move back into tying DPS to having aggro. It's the same concept Shield Swipe had and it's bringing exactly the same problem to the table Shield Swipe did.

In general, I believe coupling DPS to extra stuff leads to a "cursed" game design problem. It's also the reason I am skeptical the devs will find a proper solution: "cursed" game design problems cannot be really "solved", only worked around somehow.

[Terhix]

(...) lead with the bombshell first - Not something you're resurrecting from the grave.

I mean, have you seen the DRG?

Folks here are so laser-focused on the tank role split you might be missing the forest for the trees. The main stated goal of Evolved Mode is "Emphasizing Individuality". PLD didn't get anything flashy like Sky High or left/right positionals or a completely different True North, but PLD already has tools no other tank has in Passage (now with an extra heal), Cover (now off-gauge and with buddy dash), Clemency, and its burst being completely ranged.

OTs are not getting a blanket rotational change like a counter? Fine by me. I don't want DRK, WAR, and GNB to be reskins of one another. Whether they're gonna succeed time will only tell.

[whiskeybravo]

I mean, have you seen the DRG?

The thing is, that's been being asked for by the community pretty much since the game launched.

Who asked for MT/OT split? I certainly can't claim to know more than a small % of all the discussion over the years, but I've been lurking on and off for most of them and I don't recall any serious commentary on it.

[Mecia]

I know the split will cause friction with players but also DRK being OT means more HP/MP juggling (delusional)

[Terhix]

The thing is, that's been being asked for by the community pretty much since the game launched.

Really? Have people been asking about DRG getting left/right positionals and jumps removing positional requirements since the game launched, or have they just been asking for a DRG to play more like proper FF DRG? On that note, I can probably dig out about half a dozen threads where people discuss DRK HP sacrifice and how that wouldn't work in current PvE, one is currently on the front page.

You can argue that it's not required to de-homogenize tanks, and that's also fine and true, but it's also true that the split does make the de-homogenization easier by opening a lot of design space that's currently off limits. Shield Swipe was removed precisely because it locked PLD into MT, did you hear the audience cheer when they showed PLD doing a counter attack?

[Mukuku]

On that note, I can probably dig out about half a dozen threads where people discuss DRK HP sacrifice and how that wouldn't work in current PvE, one is currently on the front page.

HP sacrifice is a problematic design regardless of whether you make DRK an OT or even a melee DPS, but I guess that's a discussion for these threads.

[Sazuzaki]

And, I understand they want to keep people on the drip for what they're actually doing, but come on - lead with the bombshell first - Not something you're resurrecting from the grave.

Full agree there. If you're gonna do a split like that and only show one side, people are bound to be skeptical. But the thing with counters is yes, they have implemented them in the past, and no, it was not a very interesting implementation. But it could've been. XIV's developers tend to 'overcorrect' themselves when one thing happens to be wrong and end up tossing the whole idea out (dark arts). Let's imagine if PLD in 7.0 had Shield Swipe and it gave you an additional 15% mitigation for 10 seconds; you could wait for the boss to auto-attack right before an upcoming tank buster and use it to stack another 15% mit on top of your existing mitigation and become nigh-unkillable. It could've actually rewarded you for good play and mitigating as a tank. I'm hopeful for the new counters because you must time your mitigation to get the full effect, and there's a lot of speculation going on as to what that buff in the showcase might be.

[Sazuzaki]

In general, I believe coupling DPS to extra stuff leads to a "cursed" game design problem. It's also the reason I am skeptical the devs will find a proper solution: "cursed" game design problems cannot be really "solved", only worked around somehow.

Well it's as you said: job design can only be compromised around. There's no "problematic design" or "correct design," only the design that makes the most people happy.

[Mukuku]

Well it's as you said: job design can only be compromised around. There's no "problematic design" or "correct design," only the design that makes the most people happy.

You don't need to have that particular "cursed" game design problem in the game though: the issue is coupling DPS to extra stuff, but the devs can just stop coupling DPS to extra stuff to avoid the problem completely.

Take gap closers. If you couple DPS to gap closers, they effectively become DPS CDs on top of being mobility CDs. Since DPS CDs have a very different use than mobility CDs, you get degenerate gameplay like dumping all your gap closers in the opener and having the gap closers as part of your DPS rotation. The solution is simple though: make gap closers purely mobility CDs.

The same applies to defensive CDs: "counters" basically turn a defensive CD in a defensive + DPS CD, so it will get optimized as DPS CD. Make them dps-neutral instead and you avoid the whole DPS CD optimization headache it would otherwise bring.