What exactly did the improved encounter design do?

[Bru_Tus]

At the end of the day each fight is just a rote memorized DDR scripted boss in an arena anyway.

We should have more bosses with unpredictable patterns that force you into having downtime.

But that's something the parse brains don't want. They complained enough and this is where we're at with the game's fight design.

Yeah this game started going downhill when they began taking feedback from the parsebrains. FFLogs was actually detrimental to this game's long-term design.

[Absurdity]

I got the name mixed up with Asphodelos(happens to me a lot). And yes I'm aware of the woes of on-release Alexander and the overtuning of 7.0 jobs due to PCT. I was referring to the SB-ShB era of high-end content where savage was standardized and Ultimates began to exist, and how those raids would mostly be considered too easy by the new difficulty standards set by EW raids.

Those comparisons are often flawed imo, because they look at these old raids in isolation or from the perspective of today's combat design, an environment they were never made for.
If we go purely by how "challenging" the fights are mechanically then yea, old fights are absolutely easier. Of course they were going to be easier when the environment around them has been simplified to the point of being irrelevant.

Rotations were more complicated and rotational mistakes more punishing, potencies were lower, combos only lasted 8 seconds instead of 30 and broke from ranged attacks, cast times were longer, movement tools less plentiful, tank mitigation wasn't unified and so less consistent, self/party-sustain among non-healers was generally lower and probably more that I forgot.

So modern fights need to have more difficult mechanics, since they're the only thing now occupying your mind.

Of course difficulty is kinda subjective, Light-Heavyweight for me felt a bit more difficult than Promise tier and was considerably more difficult than P1s which was easier to me than half of EW's extreme trials.

Definitely depends on how quickly you learn the modern "dance" design, which is often the same 10 or so mechanics shuffled around, and which of those mechanics you find the easiest for you.
I'll take Light Rampant, Icelit Dragonsong, Grand Cross Omega, any of the M4S sabbaths or any of the P4S acts over Zodiark Ex. I just can not deal with calculating where the AoEs end up on that spinning platform.

[Daralii]

Those comparisons are often flawed imo, because they look at these old raids in isolation or from the perspective of today's combat design, an environment they were never made for.
If we go purely by how "challenging" the fights are mechanically then yea, old fights are absolutely easier. Of course they were going to be easier when the environment around them has been simplified to the point of being irrelevant.

Rotations were more complicated and rotational mistakes more punishing, potencies were lower, combos only lasted 8 seconds instead of 30 and broke from ranged attacks, cast times were longer, movement tools less plentiful, tank mitigation wasn't unified and so less consistent, self/party-sustain among non-healers was generally lower and probably more that I forgot.

So modern fights need to have more difficult mechanics, since they're the only thing now occupying your mind.

Boss crits were also still around in SB, so things could randomly go wrong and require people to think on their feet. Whether or not it was good design is up for debate, but it was something else to think about outside of the script.

[Coolyy]

I think you underestimate the difficulty of, say, O12S on release. Even if we ignore that jobs were far more difficult back then, current players don't recognize that much of the mechanical difficulty back then was embedded in things outside of positioning. For example Patch was semi-random and required coordination between the team, and you needed to actually time yourself breaking the tether and knowing who to go towards or move away from, while also making sure that your tether break doesn't coincide with a vuln up. You also needed to coordinate with the healers because people need to be topped off at least halfway in. Back then FF14 was a game that required far more communication and coordination unlike the individual responsibility game we have now.

For DPS's they might not notice as much change as supports, other than not really needing to pay attention to things like their own HP these days.

I've heard a lot of raiders claim that Hello World is actually easier in TOP which should be enough for most people to realize that O12S is more challenging than M4S, lol. Same for Light Rampant in E8S vs FRU which I can actually agree with from anecdotal experience.

[ForsakenRoe]

I've heard a lot of raiders claim that Hello World is actually easier in TOP which should be enough for most people to realize that O12S is more challenging than M4S, lol. Same for Light Rampant in E8S vs FRU which I can actually agree with from anecdotal experience.

Can't speak for Light Rampant, but I think part of why TOP's HW is 'easier' in some people's minds, is that you have to do every 'position' for it, so technically, you're learning one 'timeline' for the mechanic, and you happen to start at different points during that timeline. Whereas in the OG version, you could (as a DPS) have one of four different 'timelines' to follow, depending on which debuff you get

The rot spreading was a bit more annoying in HW2 as well, but maybe something to do with server responsiveness changed between then and TOP (or I'm just misremembering/was bad at the game back then)

[Coolyy]

Can't speak for Light Rampant, but I think part of why TOP's HW is 'easier' in some people's minds, is that you have to do every 'position' for it, so technically, you're learning one 'timeline' for the mechanic, and you happen to start at different points during that timeline. Whereas in the OG version, you could (as a DPS) have one of four different 'timelines' to follow, depending on which debuff you get

The rot spreading was a bit more annoying in HW2 as well, but maybe something to do with server responsiveness changed between then and TOP (or I'm just misremembering/was bad at the game back then)

Yes, exactly this. Obviously both are challenging versions of the mechanic, but one has to be easier and it's an actual debate.

Whereas when they eventually release the Arcadion Ultimate I'm really not expecting any of the M4S mechanics to be easier there. I'm honestly not even sure if M4S will have a phase since there will be so much content to cover in that Ultimate; though it obviously should be. Now that I think about it, I'm not even sure how I would design that Ultimate with a 20 minute time constraint.

[ForsakenRoe]

Whereas when they eventually release the Arcadion Ultimate I'm really not expecting any of the M4S mechanics to be easier there. I'm honestly not even sure if M4S will have a phase since there will be so much content to cover in that Ultimate; though it obviously should be. Now that I think about it, I'm not even sure how I would design that Ultimate with a 20 minute time constraint.

I was joking back when Cruiserweight was current, that there should be a phase in a hypothetical Ultimate where Howling Blade and Wicked Thunder fight together, with Howling Blade being the P2 mech mode and Wicked Thunder 'piloting the Gundam'. Or perhaps less 'Gundam' and moreso 'Gurren Lagaan', what with how Electrope Has Many Uses

[Coolyy]

I was joking back when Cruiserweight was current, that there should be a phase in a hypothetical Ultimate where Howling Blade and Wicked Thunder fight together, with Howling Blade being the P2 mech mode and Wicked Thunder 'piloting the Gundam'. Or perhaps less 'Gundam' and moreso 'Gurren Lagaan', what with how Electrope Has Many Uses

I'm actually so, so down for this but more in like a weird fusion sense since they are a couple. Your idea is great also and would work lol. I was talking about this exact concept with some friends earlier on in Dawntrail after the CW Tier. It would be the coolest Ultimate Phase ever besides like TOP P5 if they go either route here.

If I had to brainstorm an early draft the obvious stuff that needs to be included are: The entire Arcadion, M4S, M8S, M11S, M12S and Metem as the announcer. I also think they would need to retain that feeling of rising up the ranks as that was an the main identify of the Arcadion.

So considering that I would probably design something like:

P1: LHW Divison (Black Cat, Honey B Lovely, Brute Bomber). Ends at 3:00.
P2: CW Division (Dancing Green, Sugar Riot and Brute Abominator). Hector needs to return like in Savage for the meme. Ends at 6:00.
P3: Wicked Thunder and Howling Blade fusion or Wicked Thunder P1 and Howling Blade P1 simultaneously. I think their P2s should be exclusive to Savage since it's essentially their what-if scenario and we already went down that path. Ends at 10:00
P4: Heavyweight Divison (Vamp Fatale, Deep Blue and Red Hot) Ends at 12:00
P5: The Tyrant Ends at 15:00
P6: A quick Lindwurm P1 maybe? But this Phase is pretty awful so maybe just scrap it. Ends at 17:30
Cutscene that ends at 18:30
P7: A new Lindwurm phase where he consumes the powers of the entire Arcadion. Idyllic Dream makes a return but the Phase incorporates mechanics of every Arcadian fighter which was the original prediction for M12S P2. Maybe the Arcadian fighters regain consciousness at the end and try to help us for the Enrage to save the President. They can do a lot of stuff for the final Phase, but the ending definitely needs to be whimsical as that fits The Arcadion theming. Enrages at 22:00.

I would probably make this the hardest Ultimate besides maybe TOP simply because it would have to be. Not even from an elitist standpoint but because it's so complex and has a strong identity like Omega. It's also releasing in a much later era than we are in now, I'm assuming that we aren't getting an Arcadion Ultimate until around 10.x now that they've changed the formula with UMAD. We will naturally be much better gamers by 9.x or 10.x.

Listen I also have zero clue how Soken would compose this lol. This would probably be the worst Ultimate of all time reading it now, I really don't know. It's just probably the hardest Ultimate to make conceptually so far with the 18-22 minute time constraint since it has such a strong sense of identity. I can also see them centering it about the Miqo'fam dynamic which isn't a bad idea but I'd rather them not after seeing FRU focus so much on Ryne and Gaia over Eden and the Primals.

[Bru_Tus]

Boss crits were also still around in SB, so things could randomly go wrong and require people to think on their feet. Whether or not it was good design is up for debate, but it was something else to think about outside of the script.

Back then knowing when to use Awareness was one of the signs of a great tank. It's a huge prog difference to have a tank using Awareness after a Plummet in UCoB for example. Tank positioning in general feels like it's irrelevant now. Instead in DSR sometimes it feels like I made far more of a prog difference to use Heart of Corundum on a vuln well than actual tanking duties, as if I'm an "off-healer".

[Bru_Tus]

Can't speak for Light Rampant, but I think part of why TOP's HW is 'easier' in some people's minds, is that you have to do every 'position' for it, so technically, you're learning one 'timeline' for the mechanic, and you happen to start at different points during that timeline. Whereas in the OG version, you could (as a DPS) have one of four different 'timelines' to follow, depending on which debuff you get

The rot spreading was a bit more annoying in HW2 as well, but maybe something to do with server responsiveness changed between then and TOP (or I'm just misremembering/was bad at the game back then)

IIRC in SB the rot spread wasn't instant, so people learned to stay for a second or so before moving on.