7.5 MSQ [SPOILERS]

[Divinemights]

Without further explanation, none of the current antagonism makes sense. Here is why:

1. No other person other than Halmarut anticipated this. So either everyone is an idiot (unbelievable), she did not tell anyone (unbelievable), or she is lying. Didn't Halmarut have an ethical obligation to come forward before now?
2. Calyx tells us he was picked to cause rejoining. But in DT he wasn't doing that. If anything, he was looking for a way to preserve consciousness under the assumption Solstice was inevitable.
3. What have the Winterer's been doing this whole time?
4. Can't we just solve this by going to Elpis?
5. Why were no Ascians using this key?
6. Calyx is telling us all their plans, acting like a double agent. But he is also a murderer so..?? What?
7. Is the world ending or not? Zero learns of this and is like "um anyway hey do u want to farm light, sure hope we fix this darkness thing". If the characters do not perceive this threat, is it even a real threat or a herring??

My response to the doubts raised is as follows:

1. Halmarut’s foresight and Azem connection
Halmarut likely anticipated the current situation due to her possible association with Azem.
If she is connected to Azem’s legacy, it would also explain her involvement in providing the Azem Key to the Lalafells who escaped to the Ninth.
Beyond simple benevolence, this can also be interpreted as a controlled test evaluating whether the Key can enable stable large scale interdimensional travel.

2. Calyx and the “Endless” as a proposed solution
Calyx may not be acting independently, but instead representing one faction within a broader group attempting to solve the “Solstice” problem.
From this perspective, his “Endless” concept is simply one proposed solution among many competing ideologies.

3. The Winterer as distributed experimentation
Each Winterer likely represents a different experimental approach to preserving humanity in the face of Solstice.
Rather than a single organization, they may operate across multiple shards, each testing a distinct philosophical or practical solution.

4. Timeline context: post-Elpis divergence
Since the Sundering occurs after the events of Elpis, both Venat and Emet-Selch have already departed from that point in the timeline.
This reinforces the idea that later interventions (including Halmarut’s actions) operate within a fractured, post-foundational reality where original consensus no longer exists.

5. Halmarut’s strategic collaboration hypothesis
My core theory is that Halmarut is secretly collaborating with Azem or acting in accordance with Azem’s legacy.
This would explain her apparent understanding of the Key’s function and her anticipation of what would occur as the Warrior of Light continues along their current trajectory.

6. Calyx as a controlled variable
Calyx is not an independent actor in the traditional sense.
He is effectively within Halmarut’s “sphere of control.”
He is literally existing in Halmarut's inventory (metaphorically or literally), then his approach to the Warrior of Light could not occur without her awareness.
This further supports the idea that Halmarut requires the Warrior of Light’s presence on the Fourth Shard as part of a larger design.

7. The trolley problem is illusory
There is always a third option.
The central question is not whether the world will end, but whether the Warrior of Light can recognize a path beyond binary outcomes.
In line with Azem’s philosophy, the assumption that there are only two choices may itself be the fundamental misdirection.

[Turtledeluxe]

1. If this is the case there is no foreshadowing. Alisae asks this directly and rather than addressing the plot hole, Halmarut says "time immemorial" which means since time began, too long ago to matter, or is just deception. That isn't good writing. You enjoy Shadowbringers, which included deception that while not perfect, was executed with intent, especially upon a second viewing.

2. Right but they need to pick one or again, show awareness of the contradiction. Are the Winterer's forming contingency plans, pursuing rejoinings, or both? And how many times is blatant obfuscation going to be ok?

3. I am talking about the timeline. Hydaelyn dies. When do the interviews for these candidates occur. I am assuming all their activity will conviently begin post death and resolve seauentially for xpacs, which is contrived considering the time dilation element they totally give up on when convenient.

4. Elpis is not post sundering What? We were shown cinematics of what happens, that does not confirm the Elpis conjoined to us has experienced sundering. Halmarut and Azem theoretically would be there. Even if they aren't, you did not answer the "everyone is an idiot" or "she didn't tell anyone" problems. Was no one stidying this? Guess not. Contrived. So many people have to be oblivious that it means its all, once again, a herring.

5. This wouldn't really be a surprise. Our MC already suspects the Azem connection. Its predictable and needs more to be interesting, like Azem manipulating both Halmarut and WoL or something.

6. So he has bad dialogue because of Halmarut? My point is, why do we need to know his moral parameters? Also I think you are overlooking his tone regarding his "own designs". Based on his highly individualistic philosophy espoused as well, it gives me hints of double agent.

7. Right. The trailer spoils the happy ending.

Also to contextualize, I am not asking if this can be explained. It can be. I am pointing out the writing itself does not account for these possibilities effectively. When Halmarut says "Well I know because I have always known", our characters nod and say "Hmm maybe you are lying but maybe not". That is bad writing. You are giving logical resolutions to questions but those do not retroactively make this writing good. We will not look back on being duped and say "Wow she really tricked us" because she has no explanation for her own knowledge.

[Jeeqbit]

There is a major issue that I (potentially) see as well:

Halmarut wants to do a pre-emptive rejoining. The one about to happen is on the Fourth. But in order for a rejoining to happen, there must but a calamity on the Source to make the Source "want" the ice element, right? I do not see any evidence of this incoming calamity on the Source. We've heard nothing about it - we know the Source like our backyard at this point!

When we had a similar threat of an incoming rejoining, the 8th Umbral Calamity where we went to The First, we had this big threat ongoing with Black Rose. So where is this happening?

[Divinemights]

Also to contextualize, I am not asking if this can be explained. It can be. I am pointing out the writing itself does not account for these possibilities effectively. When Halmarut says "Well I know because I have always known", our characters nod and say "Hmm maybe you are lying but maybe not". That is bad writing. You are giving logical resolutions to questions but those do not retroactively make this writing good. We will not look back on being duped and say "Wow she really tricked us" because she has no explanation for her own knowledge.

1.
To be fair, the writing team for Shadowbringers and Endwalker is different from Dawntrail.
The core thematic is still present, but it can feel fragmented due to that shift in authorship.
A good comparison would be The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power, the foundation is familiar, but execution varies depending on the writers.
That said, I do think the narrative direction has noticeably improved starting around Patch 7.2.

2.
A significant number of event could have happened between the end of Endwalker and Patch 7.5.
This is especially important given that shards can operate on different time flows just like the First.
What we are seeing upon 7.5 are the results of the Winterer’s efforts (and quite possibly their failures), while the actual processes behind those outcomes are being deliberately withheld for 8.0.

3.
In regard to timeline plausibility of Halmarut’s actions, again, with differing shard time flows and no confirmed information about Halmarut’s whereabouts, there is enough narrative flexibility to make her involvement plausible.
If she truly was the one who provided the Azem Key to the Lalafells, then the timeline can still align without contradiction.

4.
In regard to the limits of Elpis as a narrative tool, the Elpis we can access exists in a pre-Sundering state.
By that point:

• Venat and Emet-Selch are no longer present
• Elidibus has already departed following the Pandæmonium events

So realistically, Elpis cannot provide new answers in the present
Tt’s effectively a preserved snapshot of the past, not an active source of intervention.

5.
The more critical mystery is: who is the voice?
Is it embedded within the Azem Key, or within Azem’s crystal?
Or is it something that only manifests when both are present together?
This distinction matters, because it directly ties into whether the guidance we’re receiving is Azem’s legacy or something else entirely.

6.
In regard to Calyx and the limits of the “Endless” solution, Calyx’s moral framework is ultimately secondary.
What matters is that he fully believes the “Endless” solution is correct.
He embodies that ideology.

However, Patch 7.3 already demonstrates the weaknesses of the Endless when confronted by the Warrior of Light.
That alone suggests his approach is flawed.
If anything, Halmarut likely views him as a failed experiment rather than a trusted ally. His most probable narrative role going forward is as a trial boss or stepping stone in 8.0.

7.
From a meta perspective, we already know the world won’t end the Warrior of Light will find a solution.
This is we breaking the 4th wall.

The real question isn’t the outcome, but the process.
How does the Warrior of Light arrive at that solution?
Do they follow the apparent binary choice or do they recognize, as Azem once did, that there is always a third option?

Dawntrial writing overall is problematic, i agreed, but I also thinks the writing has been improving since 7.02
I mean, 3.0 story writing was pretty bad too, especially the resistence part, but as time goes on, you can see writing is improved
What they need right now is consistency.

[Divinemights]

There is a major issue that I (potentially) see as well:

Halmarut wants to do a pre-emptive rejoining. The one about to happen is on the Fourth. But in order for a rejoining to happen, there must but a calamity on the Source to make the Source "want" the ice element, right? I do not see any evidence of this incoming calamity on the Source. We've heard nothing about it - we know the Source like our backyard at this point!

When we had a similar threat of an incoming rejoining, the 8th Umbral Calamity where we went to The First, we had this big threat ongoing with Black Rose. So where is this happening?

This is precisely why I believe Halmarut never intended to trigger a premature Rejoining.
Her actions point in a completely different direction.
More specifically, she appears to be attempting to replicate the original summoning of Hydaelyn, positioning herself as the new “heart” in the process, much like Venat once did.
If that’s the case, then everything we’re seeing her manipulation of events, her interaction with the Warrior of Light, and the framing of the crisis is to replace the system that sustain the Source and the Shards

[Turtledeluxe]

There is a major issue that I (potentially) see as well:

Halmarut wants to do a pre-emptive rejoining. The one about to happen is on the Fourth. But in order for a rejoining to happen, there must but a calamity on the Source to make the Source "want" the ice element, right? I do not see any evidence of this incoming calamity on the Source. We've heard nothing about it - we know the Source like our backyard at this point!

When we had a similar threat of an incoming rejoining, the 8th Umbral Calamity where we went to The First, we had this big threat ongoing with Black Rose. So where is this happening?

Theoretically this would need to at least begin during 7.5 part 2 or concurrently at some point during Evercold. It would complicate storytelling to do it during MSQ so I assume 7.5 msq or not at all, because its not really happening and the rejoinings are all a red herring. I don't exactly remember the timetable for the setup of the Eigth but I want to say the ball was rolling on that in the early patches with the mention of Black Rose. In any case I am almost certain it wasn't all set up in one patch, which means either writers forgot or its another indicator this premise is misdirection.

[Turtledeluxe]

1.
To be fair, the writing team for Shadowbringers and Endwalker is different from Dawntrail.

I think a lot of people were expecting this to change for 8.0, but, despite the warm reception I am seeing to this patch, I unfortunately still see Dawntrail writer paws all over it. Again, your responses are plausible, but we won't know until the official story writes out these events, and I am not confident it will end up as such based on what characters are saying right now. I would love to be optimistic they have a specific vision such as what you have outlined, I'm just not seeing that in the writing right now. To be fair, I could be wrong.

What we are seeing upon 7.5 are the results of the Winterer’s efforts (and quite possibly their failures), while the actual processes behind those outcomes are being deliberately withheld for 8.0.

This is a significant assumption for me. I am thinking about what Calyx's motivation would have even been in core DT and I don't see strong evidence he was even fully conceived outside of one scene. In this scene, Sphene pauses as a mech soldier watches her and tells WoL "wait-- I need to tell you something....nevermind". Unfortunately that scene is never followed up on and we don't see him until the patches. Once he's in the patches, he's trying to kill us with lasers and a primal which is inconsistent if an Ascian with full knowledge of us is helping him. This leads to me to believe his collaboration with Halmarut was written as late as 7.4 in early drafts. Then we get to 7.5, and I am being asked to believe this is all a carefully orchestrated misdirection. It's just a lot to buy when the writing itself is not supporting this theory organically, not even a little bit. I do think they're trying to get the player to think about whether or not Halmarut is lying, but that's only because the writers themselves do not yet know if she is lying. For example, as Jeeqbit noted, a calamity is required, and they really haven't gone of of their way to even hint about a ninth Calamity for ice yet.

In regard to the limits of Elpis as a narrative tool, the Elpis we can access exists in a pre-Sundering state.
By that point:

• Venat and Emet-Selch are no longer present
• Elidibus has already departed following the Pandæmonium events

So realistically, Elpis cannot provide new answers in the present

But this list is not an exhaustive list of possible ancients who could have interacted with Azem or Halmarut. If no one interacted with them at all and there's no meaningful material evidence of their activities, then this arc must have started explicitly after the Sundering rather then at time immemorial. I was thinking she would have been studying this even during the planning stages of Zodiark but let's say she did not or it did not occur to her. Even considering this, you would think Halmarut would have brought this up as we were getting close to achieving our objective of killing the Primals. Of course the truth is, she could not have done this, because she was not conceived beyond her position in the Convocation. Hence my point, why are we choosing to write ourselves into corners of our own making when it's not necessary whatsoever.

The more critical mystery is: who is the voice?

Right, this is a nice mystery I do not have any particular problem with. Of course its implied that its Azem, but it could be someone else. I certainly think all parties involved are in one way or another pressuring us to pursue rejoinings and part of the ethical dilemma will be considering it versus some other choice. Of course I don't have to think that because it's in the writing, Alisae says it explicitly when she mentions saving everyone at the cost of oblivion. I do have an issue with casting Halmarut simply as a collaborator, servant, or otherwise pawn of Azem because that's very on the nose with existing Azem references but it's not out of the question for these writers. They would devote an entire patch to misdirection because as I've noted above, they change the story entirely between patches. If she ends up being an Azem collaborator fine, I will judge that based on how its executed. Nothing about their storytelling feels organic or deliberate. It feels like it's developing in real time by the hour.

In regard to Calyx and the limits of the “Endless” solution, Calyx’s moral framework is ultimately secondary.

Then why is it written into the patch? I highly suggest rewatching his scene with the WoL. Yes, he can only travel there by Halmarut's will (we assume) but that does not prove everything he says in the conversation can be discounted as her will or otherwise disregarded. He goes out of his way to tell us he finds the other Winterers "objectionable" then goes off on a tangent about how they possess unwavering ideals etc. That doesn't really serve a greater agenda, it just seems like his own personal insight about a story we are quite literally probably going to experience very soon. This reinforced visually, as he transitions from his toy form to his human form. He says:

"It is the culmination of our lives' works that we would bring to the world-- fruits born of undying devotion, daring aspiration and unwavering ideals. No matter how we are reviled, no matter what we must steal, our actions will be vindicated by those who abide in the future we create. In your benevolence, you may seek to save everything and everyone, but once all is consigned to oblivion, your noble deeds will amount to nothing more than folly, for no living soul will remain to judge them."

So he's not just talking about choices, he's talking about value systems applied to choices, motivations behind choices. He's associating self interest with positive outcomes and noble intentions with folly.

Do they follow the apparent binary choice or do they recognize, as Azem once did, that there is always a third option

I think this is compelling in an abstract sense but not in a story when time and time again, our cast has in fact pursued other options, including in SHB and EW. When I look at the dialogue here, I see Halmarut mentioning Zenos and I see Calyx echoing her sentiments regarding ambition. So in my view, ambition is the thematic base layer of this xpac while the arc in general might deal with our alignment or lack thereof with Azem. The question Evercold will deal with is not so much whether we recognize a third option, but what that option will potentially cost us and what are our real motivations for pursuing it.

[Supersnow845]

I don’t see why people think this should have been an anticipated outcome.

The ascians were aiming to rejoin all the shards anyway to return the unsundered world so this was never a consideration

Venat’s faction may have briefly considered what would happen if haedalyn died while the shards were still separated but it’s also possible that venat didn’t realise she’d have to use to her power to keep the shards seperate until it was already too late and the decision can’t be reserved

Given this I don’t know elpis would help.

The only two possible errors I can see are the the ascians in the thousands of years they have been active go for the key considering preservation was an ascian organisation and how Halmurant seems to know exactly how the solstice will play out rather than it being a “well founded fear of hers”

[Fordragon]

There is a major issue that I (potentially) see as well:

Halmarut wants to do a pre-emptive rejoining. The one about to happen is on the Fourth. But in order for a rejoining to happen, there must but a calamity on the Source to make the Source "want" the ice element, right? I do not see any evidence of this incoming calamity on the Source. We've heard nothing about it - we know the Source like our backyard at this point!

When we had a similar threat of an incoming rejoining, the 8th Umbral Calamity where we went to The First, we had this big threat ongoing with Black Rose. So where is this happening?

We cannot be sure if these preparations are still necessary, now that Hydealyn no longer keeps the reflections apart.

If Halmarut is to be believed the source is already in the process to rejoin everthing. I think Halmarut wants to speed up this process for single reflections to minimize the destruction on the source.

[Garruss]

I still wonder if in the end we are going to have to remake a new Hydealyn and possibly a new Zodiark to take over the jobs they were once doing.