Question: Do we have enough content for high-end and casual equally?

[Bryson]

Have you ever thought that it could be something as simple as maybe choosing better names for content? Like maybe not naming things EXTREME,SAVAGE,ULTIMATE.
Just change savage to normal and normal to easy mode.

I bet you it would work. If it was Hell on Rails (easy) and Hell on Rails (average) you would have a lot more people do extreme.

100000000%

I've thought this since SHB.. the naming conventions of content basically gaslight people into thinking it's "out of reach" to them... the amount of times I've helped people clear savage and ults and their response is something like "that wasn't too bad" never ceases to amaze me.

[LanceSummers]

I have friends who play casually and they've cleared everything that I have. Their main mmo is wow, so they just dabble on xiv. Hit up pf here and there, clear the content and log off. I also played casually up until EW (juggling ft college and ft job and living in japan for a bit.. didnt have time to commit to a static). I didn't havea problem with clearing what I wanted to in pf. I knew it'd take longer prior to begin with. That's granted given you're in pf.

what makes a player "hardcore" even? if someone is unemployed and lives on xiv, are they more or less "hardcore" than someone who plays a couple hours a couple days a week but clears all the content? This casual/hc framework is too reductive.

I don't get why you're trying to argue that high-end content is something for everyone. Hardcore and casual content in this game are fundamentally different. Casual content is for everyone and hardcore content is only for people who want to dedicate lots of time intensely studying to learn how to play their job right, do their rotation correctly, and even just learning the fights themselves. I want to feel like I am playing a video game and having fun, I do not want to feel like I am playing this game as a second form of college studying on top of the classes I already have.

[HammAndCheese]

I don't get why you're trying to argue that high-end content is something for everyone. Hardcore and casual content in this game are fundamentally different. Casual content is for everyone and hardcore content is only for people who want to dedicate lots of time intensely studying to learn how to play their job right, do their rotation correctly, and even just learning the fights themselves. I want to feel like I am playing a video game and having fun, I do not want to feel like I am playing this game as a second form of college studying on top of the classes I already have.

I think the big disconnect that comes up with this topic is the definition of "casual." Because you can "casually" approach every bit of content in this game. It boils down to time and the amount of time one is willing to commit to something. Someone could be "casual" but still run and clear savage and ultimate level content, the "hardcore/difficult" content. We need a different word for it other than casual, the thing that most people seem to be wanting more of is easier content that lasts longer than a week or two, fulfilling and rewarding content that can act as basically busy work but still gives you something nice at the end. In an ideal world that would have been OC (I enjoyed it but it's divisive to some) and how the relic system interacted with the zone (with the amount of threads you've made on this specific content in the last week you should also agree with this statement). In a way it could have also been Cosmic but that's glorified leve quests that aren't the most engaging. You can ask just about anyone on these forums for a definition on what is "casual" and you'll get a myriad of answers. Personally I think some of DT's content has been a good bridge between mind numbingly easy content and the more hardcore stuff, but that's just my opinion.

[Mikey_R]

100000000%

I've thought this since SHB.. the naming conventions of content basically gaslight people into thinking it's "out of reach" to them... the amount of times I've helped people clear savage and ults and their response is something like "that wasn't too bad" never ceases to amaze me.

On the flip side, you don't want to go too far in the other direction. Calling an Extreme 'Normal', makes it seem like it is content that should be clearable by everyone fairly easily, so, when you queue into it and continuously wipe, you are going to start doubting yourself. If this is what 'normal' content is, am I just not good enough to play the game?

Ultimately, once you know what labels mean, it doesn't matter what they are, but really, it is down to the community to explain what these terms mean and what is expected of the player.

[Bryson]

I don't get why you're trying to argue that high-end content is something for everyone. Hardcore and casual content in this game are fundamentally different. Casual content is for everyone and hardcore content is only for people who want to dedicate lots of time intensely studying to learn how to play their job right, do their rotation correctly, and even just learning the fights themselves. I want to feel like I am playing a video game and having fun, I do not want to feel like I am playing this game as a second form of college studying on top of the classes I already have.

I disagree with the insinuation that playing casually is at odds with "dedicating time, studying, playing their job right, learning." I'd argue that's patronizing to suggest someone "busy" is effectively incapable of doing those things. What makes you so confident that merely playing casually necessarily means, you are allergic to rotations and studying? I have friends in college who have cleared literally all content... hell they have thousands of hours played more than me...

Your obsession with putting people in boxes isn't reflected in reality.

What you really mean is: You're busy with college and don't wanna do content that requires time, studying, playing your job correctly etc etc.. This is completely valid opinion.. I just don't know what that has to do with playing casually or not. I know people who live on XIV (literally 12+ hours of playtime a day) and they feel the same way as you. Inversely, I know people busy af IRL and think the opposite (they only log on to do what you'd call hardcore). Your binary framework doesn't account for people all along the spectrum. It's not boxes, it's more of a venn diagram.

[CidHeiral]

I'm not trying to argue that everything is, but right now, it feels like casual players are not receiving good treatment.
Hardcore players got so many new styles of content this expansion it's insane. You got Quantum, Chaotic... Even the raids were so good from what people have said.
Look at casual/midcore. We got Merchant's Tale (Advanced), which was good, but the Occult Crescent sucks and Forked Tower Blood is hard difficulty only.
It just feels like what we do have isn't cutting it, while all the hardcore players are eating a feast.

You are confusing "I don't like the content" with "there is no content." Casual content outnumbers hardcore content by a country mile no matter which way you slice it, there is no argument otherwise. However, if the casual content you're getting does not suit your personal preferences you could reasonably make a point about how it could improve in your view, you just need to articulate what you don't like about it to make it useful feedback for the devs. Simply pointing fingers at the hardcore boogeyman is counterproductive to your goal since anyone with sense is going to know that's absurd right out of the gate.

[Bryson]

On the flip side, you don't want to go too far in the other direction. Calling an Extreme 'Normal', makes it seem like it is content that should be clearable by everyone fairly easily, so, when you queue into it and continuously wipe, you are going to start doubting yourself. If this is what 'normal' content is, am I just not good enough to play the game?

Ultimately, once you know what labels mean, it doesn't matter what they are, but really, it is down to the community to explain what these terms mean and what is expected of the player.

I also agree. I don't want to induce learned helplessness either lol... I actually think wow "solves" this issue better by having content that is scaleable.
normal, heroic, mythic, mythic +

I'd like ffxiv to have something similar. Basically "quantum" dungeons across the board. Have base difficulty (could be higher imo but nbd if not), then scaled up versions. Could be something like
Base dungeon, then adv variant, then q30, then q40. A lot of people seem to think you can't raise the ceiling without "harming" casual players. I disagree with this sentiment because wow:midnight just had arguably their hardest boss ever (L'ura) yet m+ is basically the easiest it's ever been.. not to mention story mode, lfr, normal exists for raiding, and normal and heroic exist for dungeons, for those who don't care about mythic and m+..

abundance > scarcity

[HyperiusUltima]

A lot of people seem to think you can't raise the ceiling without "harming" casual players.

THIS. THIS RIGHT HERE. This is literally the core of a lot of arguments about how we can't improve jobs to be palatable and not boring to players. This includes some of their content. In general, reading throughout the thread I agree with the notion that people can do anything as long as they put the effort forward to do it - whether it be improvement or other things. I've literally seen a person who went from an RPer to being a Savage Raider all over a god damn coat he wanted for glamour. What matters is that we need a bridge built to bring that effort forward.

Does it need a new difficulty? Maybe. Should Extremes have been named differently? Probably. But really, we had Hard Modes back in ARR to denote the difficulty; curious why they don't use Hard Mode at all now and go straight to Extreme. Hell, you might even have better reception if you BRING BACK Hard Mode and put it as an in-between(iLv wise) for Trials. Surely it can't be that hard since you design the Extreme Fight first, right?

[Bryson]

THIS. THIS RIGHT HERE. This is literally the core of a lot of arguments about how we can't improve jobs to be palatable and not boring to players. This includes some of their content. In general, reading throughout the thread I agree with the notion that people can do anything as long as they put the effort forward to do it - whether it be improvement or other things. I've literally seen a person who went from an RPer to being a Savage Raider all over a god damn coat he wanted for glamour. What matters is that we need a bridge built to bring that effort forward.

Does it need a new difficulty? Maybe. Should Extremes have been named differently? Probably. But really, we had Hard Modes back in ARR to denote the difficulty; curious why they don't use Hard Mode at all now and go straight to Extreme. Hell, you might even have better reception if you BRING BACK Hard Mode and put it as an in-between(iLv wise) for Trials. Surely it can't be that hard since you design the Extreme Fight first, right?

I've wanted "hard mode" dungeons to return for a while. Having said that, I do think, to an extent it's almost a semantic debate because some would argue they've modestly raised the floor with dungeons here and there (meso terminal 2nd boss comes to mind) so the outcome is comparable without the arbitrary naming conventions.

I have an almost unhealthy obsession with player "agency" being respected. I also don't even necessarily agree that the "goal" ought to be "enticing" or "tricking" people to "climb the ranks" so the speak by implementing bridge content. I'd much rather the content just exist and the player make that determination on their own terms, rather than devs "imposing" it on people.

I think the best way to go about that would be to lean into the quantum model (minus the gating behind dd and faux offerings) and combine msq dungeons and variant/adv-variant/criterion all into 1. Just be DUNGEONS period... that scale up. That way. No one "loses" at the expense of someone else's desire to challenge themselves. This whole framing presuposes that a certain segment has to "starve" in order for others to eat. This is a myth.

[LanceSummers]

You are confusing "I don't like the content" with "there is no content." Casual content outnumbers hardcore content by a country mile no matter which way you slice it, there is no argument otherwise. However, if the casual content you're getting does not suit your personal preferences you could reasonably make a point about how it could improve in your view, you just need to articulate what you don't like about it to make it useful feedback for the devs. Simply pointing fingers at the hardcore boogeyman is counterproductive to your goal since anyone with sense is going to know that's absurd right out of the gate.

I want casual content that has meaningful long-term playability. That is something that Endwalker and Dawntrail have lacked, Occult Crescent was supposed to be that but falters.
Occult Crescent itself is plagued by Forked Tower only appealing to raiders.
Hardcore content by its nature is great at being long-term content. Casual content not so much, we need content specifically tailored to it.