Tillana should not give 50 Gauge.

[Valence]

I don't know if the job gauge is well designed. It's just one of the majority of build up spender generic gauges in the game.

I just vehemently disagree that it's awkward.

[Reginald_Cain]

I firmly believe reaper and doancer should switch places. Sure you might have overcapped sometimes on shroud guage back in endwalker but the gauage generation on reaper was stable and way more reasonable to manage. Dancer is so annoying with how randomly the gauge fills sometimes its steady and other times 0 to 100 rq.

[Valence]

If you truly go from 0 to 100 real quick without spending any sabre, I think respectfully that you're doing something wrong, or pressing Tillana at the wrong time. Any time I overcap, I can clearly tell what I did wrong, and I like being able to analyze why I did the wrong move/choice.

[Reginald_Cain]

Possible, im not a dancer main but it does feel strange they changed plentiful harvest on reaper and hyper charge machinist but left the mechanic on dancer. Guess cuz it barely has any nowadays lol.

[Valence]

They didn't leave it on DNC, they added it in. It's also there on SAM by the way.

The problem with MCH is that it's a static deterministic rotation, so it actually got in the way because of the job's inflexibility: you'd generate the same amount of heat (unless boss downtime) and this heat has never been a neutral loop, same on RPR gauges. So you ended up with specific burst timers that kinda forced you to overcap because it was how gauge would fill up at this specific time, and while you could do some gymnastics on MCH (I don't know for RPR I never mained it) like swapping stabilizer/hypercharge/WF positions, it eventually wasn't possible to do anymore once you had done it already because you pushed it far enough in the burst sequence.

DNC doesn't have that issue because the burst sequence is entirely flexible by nature, and gauge generation isn't deterministic.

[brinn12]

They didn't leave it on DNC, they added it in. It's also there on SAM by the way.

The problem with MCH is that it's a static deterministic rotation, so it actually got in the way because of the job's inflexibility: you'd generate the same amount of heat (unless boss downtime) and this heat has never been a neutral loop, same on RPR gauges. So you ended up with specific burst timers that kinda forced you to overcap because it was how gauge would fill up at this specific time, and while you could do some gymnastics on MCH (I don't know for RPR I never mained it) like swapping stabilizer/hypercharge/WF positions, it eventually wasn't possible to do anymore once you had done it already because you pushed it far enough in the burst sequence.

DNC doesn't have that issue because the burst sequence is entirely flexible by nature, and gauge generation isn't deterministic.

Back in Endwalker, MCH was only forced to overcap its gauge by 5 one time in a full uptime fight, which is nothing compared to DNC in Dawntrail. For that reason, you would never see experienced Machinists complain about overcapping. Major overcapping was always considered a personal mistake. And if someone overcapped in downtime fights, it simply meant poor gauge management.

Current DNC is being punished for getting good RNG and executing a perfect rotation. Its burst is not as flexible as you might think. You could end up having to use Tillana and Saber Dance outside of buffs if you hold them for too long, which the game can force you to do.

There are also situations where you have to use Standard Step on cooldown to avoid drifting, even when it would be ideal to use Tillana due to low gauge. After that, the game forces you to sit at around 35~45 gauge constantly, and using Tillana will cause you to overcap, since your teammates will generate additional gauge on top of the 50 you get.

Removing gauge generation from MCH and adding it to DNC feels like a completely disconnected decision. It shows that different people are working on jobs within the same role without proper communication, which really shouldn't be happening.

[Valence]

Yes the heat overcap was a more serious concern in SHB on MCH, which you could tiptoe around with the "gymnastics" I mentioned above. Either way, you had to eat the 5 heat overcap in EW and you couldn't do anything about it, whereas for DNC, you can always do something about it, without ruining the rotation at all. If you're using Tillana out of buffs, sure, but then it means your burst is literally full of Sabres next to Starfall and Steps, which is still a gain over using some of the filler procs.

This isn't about deterministic rotations that never change. Else let's complain on BRD instead where it's actually warranted because it also has the same kind of priorities during burst (only difference, theirs is less chokefull of nukes because no Sabre Dance), and actual gauge overcap concerns because Apex usage is rigid and not flexible, for which I actually agree because you can't do anything about it—it's always 2 per 120s no matter the rng gen you get.

The only thing I could agree on this is that Tillana perhaps doesn't deserve to do more potency than Sabre. It would fix so much of the whining about "perfect burst"...

Either way after all this, I wouldn't worry, seeing CBU3's track record, you'll get your simplification next expansion, surely. One more job dumbed down back to what it was in EW, or even worse.

[brinn12]

Yes the heat overcap was a more serious concern in SHB on MCH, which you could tiptoe around with the "gymnastics" I mentioned above. Either way, you had to eat the 5 heat overcap in EW and you couldn't do anything about it, whereas for DNC, you can always do something about it, without ruining the rotation at all. If you're using Tillana out of buffs, sure, but then it means your burst is literally full of Sabres next to Starfall and Steps, which is still a gain over using some of the filler procs.

This is 100% wrong and there are different scenarios that illustrate it, as I've explained. You can't help it if the game wants to keep your gauge either above 50 or at 35–45 during the entire burst. Eventually, you have to use Tillana or choose to use it outside of the buff window. Also, you wouldn't necessarily be filling the window with Saber Dances. You're failing to understand a very common scenario on DNC:

1) You're in a burst window. You've used almost all your big-hit skills.
2) There's only Tillana left, and your gauge is at 40 or 45.
3) If you use it, you risk overcapping. If you don't, you risk using extra procs or even your main combo during the burst window.
4) The game could force you into this situation until the buff window ends.

A perfectly played MCH would only overcap its gauge by 5. A perfectly played DNC could still overcap 10 times that. You'd only notice overcapping 5 gauge on MCH with a very specific kill time (1 GCD difference).

You couldn't do anything with just 5 gauge in a fight, no one cared about that, and no one would if that were DNC's problem. The DNC situation is very different. I recommend that you try current DNC in high-end duties so you can better understand this, since you said earlier that you haven't "played the job to the bone in raiding content". You're more likely to see people trying to hit their GCDs without clipping there, and you'll also get to see all the instances of RNG.

[Valence]

You know what, this actually tires me. I've said my piece, I am perfectly aware of the scenario you describe, which is common during burst, but less so at literally every GCD. I've already said I'm not against changes as long as it keeps the same agency in priority of execution, but every change that's been suggested so far is literally bringing up the sandpaper, which I'm vehemently against. No way we're going back to EW DNC.

But if all we're going to do is send ad hominem and constantly move goalposts on my playing experience of the job, I'm frankly not interested. I've played it enough both in high end and savage duties, both in EW and DT to make my mind. But I haven't actually mained it to the extent I've mained MCH or BRD in my savage experience, and that's why I'm always trying to reconsider my position every time I'm reading the words of someone that has.

[Reginald_Cain]

I think tillana can stay the same until 8.0 because until then dancer is gonna remain pretty basic outside managing this one thing.