Alright hear me out DRK

[Zarkovitch]

I like the suggestion but the reason but same time conflicted with it. Reason why plunge got yeeted from drk.

1. dmg a gap closer is dumb. Which the suggestion will fix being a only burst thing but open the door of getting jebaited for dmg (oh baby damages downs) and getting animation lock by gap closer.

2. Next, drk and gbn have too much ogcd button press back on endwalker. They remove gap closer dmg which open the door for a utility and I will die on this hill it was a welcoming change.

For players who miss this,they never play high end game raid, trust me you will not miss plunge. I'm happy to say no thanks plunge stay in shadow realm. As a drk main.

[Carighan]

Yeah I agree Zarkovitch, the underlying idea that we no longer have to save up and then burst with gapclosers (removing their use as actual gapclosers anyways) is kinda silly.

Although I guess I'd prefer to fix that at a very basic level (FFXIV's use of GCD vs oGCD "weaving"), but that'd be a massive rework so I can see why just making the gapcloser damageless works fine.

[Avorie]

For players who miss this,they never play high end game raid, trust me you will not miss plunge. I'm happy to say no thanks plunge stay in shadow realm. As a drk main.

That's not 100% true. I've done high end content and I want plunge back. I've actually put time into the class to learn how to play it. While I can see why people don't want plunge back, something needs to be done about the 1-2-3 spam.
They got to give us something back. So personally for me, it's a gameplay feel issue. On the balance side the class works. However, anyone can change numbers around make the classes work and still make it feel like crap to play.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

For players who miss this,they never play high end game raid, trust me you will not miss plunge. I'm happy to say no thanks plunge stay in shadow realm. As a drk main.

...speak for yourself, not others. Savage Raiding since 4.05 Stormblood, four out of six ultimates down with multiple kills, been maining the job since 4.3. And I want Plunge back.

We can always discuss the painpoints of wanting to stack multiple Plunges into burst windows vs having to allocate one based on fight knowledge for movement/knockback cancellation (which is where having Shadowstride AND Plunge would be the simple solution), but do not be so arrogant to speak for other high-end DRK raiders like we are all the same.

[Shurrikhan]

I like the suggestion but the reason but same time conflicted with it. Reason why plunge got yeeted from drk.

1. dmg a gap closer is dumb. Which the suggestion will fix being a only burst thing but open the door of getting jebaited for dmg (oh baby damages downs) and getting animation lock by gap closer.

2. Next, drk and gbn have too much ogcd button press back on endwalker. They remove gap closer dmg which open the door for a utility and I will die on this hill it was a welcoming change.

1.
For players who miss this,they never play high end game raid, trust me you will not miss plunge. I'm happy to say no thanks plunge stay in shadow realm. As a drk main.

This is like saying that damage on something with a heal (Carve and Spit, Soul eater, Abyssal Drain) or %DR with flat sustain (Shadowed Vigil, etc.) is inherently dumb -- except worse, in that the heal would get at least some use on a tank while a pure gap-closer being worth its button depends on, obviously, having gaps to close.

Just as a 400p heal on a %40 DR wouldn't force you to use it without incoming damage (wasting the far larger component of sustain), the 40p of extra damage from using a gap closer under raid buffs does not force you to waste the ~400p of total potency saved from even a single a GCD of extra uptime.

Fcs. Why do people insist that something utterly no optimal (outright bad play) must be the inevitable end brought by optimization?

Generally, the only "high end players" who would want to never have to think about how many gaps are coming up in the next 30s are those who largely prefer striking dummy rotation over actual content. Don't pretend that this dumbing down was by their insistence.

And if you got "jebaited", then maybe play with some foresight or learn your actual balance points on the relative value of your skills, just as one would for mixed defensive.

2.
The oGCDs were already compressed, and if it were such an issue, there was a far more obvious solution: giving our CD attacks (or at least Shadowbringers) the Six-Sided Star treatment, causing it to spend 3k MP whenever one had 6k+ in order to deal an extra Edge's worth of of damage to one's primary target and an extra Flood's worth to all others caught in the blast. Voila; 3 fewer oGCDs per 2-minute burst with no loss of control. More than enough to retain an extra skill in the mix regardless of the number of gaps to close in the fight and add a modicum of reward for forethought/fight knowledge.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Even in the case of "feeling forced to press a button because it does damage"... Samurai's [Hissatsu: Gyoten] is a dash with a damage component, but it costs gauge and has a potency-per-gauge value identical to your main spender [Hissatsu: Shinten]. Costs less than Shinten, so you can bank your gauge without issues and still have a damaging dash before or after your burst.

Warrior's [Onslaught] operated similarly in 5.X series. Despite the insistance that "Fell Cleave does more damage", Onslaught actually was as damage neutral as it could get and more or less just boiled down to what GCD you ended the fight on. You also could use it to do gauge manipulation.



We had a tank dash that was not a "must press on cooldown", did damage and had only 10s recast, so you could use it relatively often if you really needed to. It got replaced with a charge system because WAR wanna-bes would rather pull with a dash (which is far from ideal anyhow) and make the whole thing worse down the line. (it also made Bloodrage in Bozja significantly less interesting since you only get two charges there and have to be very strict with the dash timing).

And now we are asking for damage to be removed from dashes altogether. I'm tired boss.