You might as well add an official DPS log to the game...

[0blivion]

ITT: OP thinks banning parsing tools will prevent them from getting kicked for underperforming. nah. nobody outside a logging party kicks you for just parsing low unless the fight has a very tight dps check. if you get kicked over logs, it's never your actual damage number — it's your deaths, your misuse of cooldowns, literally proglying, the list goes on. all of those are things i usually kick over after 1-3 wipes, but some people skip that part by checking your ffloga. I have nothing to hide. If a farm / reclear / wahetever party is what I'm joining, I better perform well enough to not be a liability, and I believe that everyone should adhere to that rule of thumb— you're not entitled to other/better players' time solely by virtue of playing the game, lol.

[Connor]

It’s not the same but couldn’t get round the ‘player friction’ dilemma by just making it only show personal output? Maybe similar to the PvP results screen after each match that shows damage output, damage taken, healing etc. But only for yourself. Like, we have the technology lol (in PvP anyway)

[theunhappypotato]

ITT: OP thinks banning parsing tools will prevent them from getting kicked for underperforming. nah. nobody outside a logging party kicks you for just parsing low unless the fight has a very tight dps check. if you get kicked over logs, it's never your actual damage number — it's your deaths, your misuse of cooldowns, literally proglying, the list goes on. all of those are things i usually kick over after 1-3 wipes, but some people skip that part by checking your ffloga. I have nothing to hide. If a farm / reclear / wahetever party is what I'm joining, I better perform well enough to not be a liability, and I believe that everyone should adhere to that rule of thumb— you're not entitled to other/better players' time solely by virtue of playing the game, lol.

but that be toxic or something

[Gurgeh]

This!

A healthy game environment is a game environment where similarly skilled players with similar goals and mindset are matched together. If there is no such system in place already in the game, and instead it's all a giant battle royale "you get what you get", then the playerbase would take steps (gate keeping) to foster toward the ideal environment even if these measures are making the problem worse. This is basically SQEX shifting the responsibility of skill based matchmaking onto the players instead of implementing anything themselves.

And THIS!

It should be more than just that. It should be an environment where players from all different levels can work together to overcome the challenges presented by the content. This has become less and less the case as of late, and the hostility has been greater amongst players due to the current in-game environment.

Because the conversation has moved onto where it should be, Square Enix taking responsibility and making a game that is the machinery that:
- Allows people with similar goals and approaches to find each other.
- Allows people with different goals to find common ground and realign

I'm just going to repost this (with edits)

Games fault.
Because game can fix it.
Add counters/flags to each instance for multiple key prog points. Thousand ways to 'present' that. Pick one. You could even add more inventoty tokens to the game if your feeling maliciously lazy about the dev work.
But it has to be done
When you pass a prog point your counter go up.
PF leaders can pick two prog points and say, I want X clears off the first and Y clears off the second.
Instance dev picks 5 prog points to label in the game. (If five is not enough it's a bad game design, or your need to "play other games" because your too fussy)

I dont want to hear technical excuses because they can only be poor. The only excuse is "we made mistakes in the past design and we are not stepping outside them"
The storage is still cheap.
The compute is cheap.
The data transfer is cheap if you stick to what's needed' query transactions. If your transferring a whole characters entire history have state to enter an instance that's just dumb.
Dont tell me it's impossible to pull 5 bytes (if that) over http on demand from a new database, even if that database is the other side of the world.

Its not people that are broken. People are people, that's the bit you have to "work with"

NoSQL. Partition by character ID, now you just throw new named documents in. Again if your storing the whole of a character or even the whole of their history in one document, that's just dumb.

Actually the truth is that, certainly pre AI inflation, with NoSQL you could have had a prog counter for every mechanic and it would have cost little extra.

The DPS issue?

@SE

Start properly QAing and properly testing your instances.
I hear a lot that that to me sounds like you instance testing is poor.
You should know what the bottom percentile of your target audience is able to achieve, and limit the variable that is the HP, accordingly.
Show some self control, stop this belief that if you make it harder your audience will just get better. They don't, they just find other ways, or they don't.
If you get it wrong that's fine, but fix it and fix it fast, and consistently fix it fast.
When you push it, and you push the margins, you start writing cheques you need to make sure you can cache, or don't write them.
Its your games job. Its your job.

[Moqi]

After coming back to the game for a couple of days I've definitely changed my mind about this. Would love to see clear DPS logs for an instance. It would really help put into prespective what i'm doing. I'm on PS5 so I don't have any tool except a vague suggestion by the aggro list. I'd love a link to paste to xivanalysis or something.

[Moqi]

Are people really being kicked out of practice parties for not being top DPS or are they kicked out for not meeting the minimum DPS requirement that Savage content requires?

You practice the mechanics, not your rotation; otherwise you're just wasting 7 other people's time. I don't think that's toxic. Unless they require SSS cleares before joining a high end Duty there's really no other way to check beforehand.

[0blivion]

Using 3rd party tools to block players from doing endgame content is pure toxicity and don't forget that there is players who aren't underperforming but unable to do top DPS all the time and there is players who are doing simple mistakes but being blokced doing endgame content completely because of these 3rd party tool users.

Just image wanting to learn and complete newest savage raid, you join the practice party to learn the fight but you get instantly kicked out due to party leader using 3rd party tools to see that you are not doing top DPS all the time and same thing happens with every practice party you are trying to join.

If anything 3rd party tools should never being used to prevent players to learn and complete endgame content, even if the player is underperforming at first while they are learning the fight and then perform as well then most players who are doing endgame content.

That's not the case though. Usually people get kicked over logs only if the DPS check is tight or they're caught proglying or they're actively eating DMG downs left and right. Other scenarios: I'm premade and a friend has them blocked — usually an instant kick if it's blocked for underperformance and not something silly like Frontline sound effect crimes. Or the person is premade with someone who sucks.

You can choose: get kicked for underperforming before you instance in and nobody's time is wasted, or get kicked after you enter the instance because even without ACT, underperformers are obvious. And if you get kicked that often, then consider that maybe, indeed, you are the problem. And if you aren't, make a party of your own! It ain't that deep. I underperformed on DPS in M6S in week 3 or so, and thus I switched to healer. It's an acknowledgement of your limitations.

/e: Also, what Moqi said.

[Miradelle]

don't forget that there is players who aren't underperforming but unable to do top DPS all the time and there is players who are doing simple mistakes but being blokced doing endgame content completely because of these 3rd party tool users.

Have you ever done savage?

Just image wanting to learn and complete newest savage raid, you join the practice party to learn the fight but you get instantly kicked out due to party leader using 3rd party tools to see that you are not doing top DPS all the time and same thing happens with every practice party you are trying to join.

Doesn't sound like you have ...

If anything 3rd party tools should never being used to prevent players to learn and complete endgame content

This would be the part in the scooby doo movies when they pull the mask off of the ghost, and it's revealed they never actually had raided savage.

Because you have never done savage, you do not realize that no one (in their right mind) is looking at DPS during PROG. Damage is completely IRRELEVANT. I am fine with a DNC pressing nothing, as long as they do the mechanics. They're not going to be my problem when I am going for a CLEAR party. What you should be complaining about is that 3rd party tools will be used to stop people from joining clear groups, because their damage is so bad, that they are dead weight. If you're hitting some green parses, you're probably fine. But if you're hitting single digit parses over and over again, then yeah people aren't willing to carry you, because you never learned your job. Wait a few weeks when gear can carry you, and people will not care.

The thing also is, without third party tools like ACT, you will get people who are doing acceptable damage kicked out of the party, because they were the lowest on ENMITY.

[Moqi]

It is very hard to believe someone's getting kicked from a pratice party because they eat damage *only* once or twice...

[Daralii]

Player eating damage once or twice is something shouldn't lead to being kicked from the party when everyone can make mistakes, there can be chance where player gets suddenly distracted by something or other reasons that they don't able to evade taking damage.

It's early enough in the tier for a handful of damage downs to result in not meeting the DPS requirement before hard enrage, especially if people aren't managing to get full uptime for various reasons or are making other mistakes.

How you even know without using 3rd party tools that player is underperforming if the party have never played with the player who joined?

Damage Down, Weakness, and Brink of Death are all "I fucked up the mechanic" badges. If someone is getting them consistently, they're underperforming.

If this underperforming is tied to certain DPS jobs for not able to deal with tight DPS check then that is devs fault for making certain DPS jobs too weak and making DPS check too tight.

Savage is the hard mode. If you're doing it early in the tier, you either step up to the plate or you don't clear it.